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Cider Digest #0005

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Cider Digest
 · 9 Apr 2024

Subject: Cider Digest #5 Fri Aug 16 11:00:06 EDT 1991 
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 91 11:00:08 EDT
From: (Are you SURE you want to send it HERE?)

Cider Digest #5 Fri Aug 16 11:00:06 EDT 1991
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Jay Hersh, Digest Coordinator

Attenuative vs unattenuative.... (hersh)
RE: Cider Digest #4 Thu Aug 15 18:00:11 EDT 1991 (KLUDGE)
How many apples? (Andy Leith)
Answers to lots of questions (long and authoritative) (Ted Stefanik)
What a concept? (Russ Gelinas)

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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 91 18:11:12 EDT
Subject: Attenuative vs unattenuative....

Gee I decided not to cheat (I can read the mail as it comes into the collection
buffer :-), and to wait to try to clarify this until it was sent out.

OK I perhaps am guilty of creating some confusion.

In a previous discussion I was talking about how to avoid getting really dry
cider, and a I don't recall the exact wording I used but I was trying to
basically make the point that Ale yeast will consume less sugar than Champagne
yeast in general. I was trying to explain (based on my experience) how to avoid
getting super dry ciders. I recommended using a less attenuative yeast, ie one
that has a lower alcohol tolerance, and will therefore consume less sugar
before quitting, leaving some sugars left in the resulting beverage.

Apologies if this is improper or confusing terminology.
The comparison I was making was between types of yeast (ie Ale vs Champagne or
Wine), and not for a given type of yeast (say Chico Ale vs Whitbread Ale).

So the advise is to check your initial gravity, have some ballpark of what you
want your final gravity to be, and then select your yeast accordingly.

Other techniques are to use the natural yeasts (I'd like to hear more from
people who've done this), or to fortify with unfermentables (say my addition of
malt extract which contains some unfermentable sugars).

Hope this helps clarify things a little..

- JaH


Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1991 20:22:30 EDT
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #4 Thu Aug 15 18:00:11 EDT 1991

I would suspect that the primary sugar present in cider before fermentation
is fructose. Probably a few complex sugars as well, but I suspect not as
much as in beer wort.

There are two manufacturers of commercial cider in the Chesapeake Bay
area. One of them is out in the Va. Beach direction, and produces a fairly
sweet but noticeably alcoholic cider with a slight tartness. Good stuff,
and I believe they are called the "Chesapeake Bay Brewery." The other one
is on the Eastern Shore, and makes a rather watery and tasteless cider
with a lot of alcohol. I don't know the name of the firm offhand, but I
believe they also make scuppernong wine which is worthy of use as a carb
- --scott


Date: Thu, 15 Aug 91 20:15:57 CDT
From: (Andy Leith)
Subject: How many apples?

I have a Granny Smith tree, and a pear tree of unknown variety, which are presen
tly shedding fruit all over ny patio. Rather than having all this stuff
rotting on my patio I figure I might as well try and make something out of it.
I can borrow a grape crusher, the question is will this be suitable for crushin
g apples, and how many pounds of apples does it take to make a gallon of cider,
same question for the pears and perry?



Date: Thu, 15 Aug 91 23:00:55 EDT
From: (Ted Stefanik)
Subject: Answers to lots of questions (long and authoritative)

Hello all. I'd like to throw my 20 cents worth (sorry, inflation) in on
several topics that have been flying about here. To introduce myself, let me
say I started making cider last fall, and made 2 okay batches, and a bunch of
mediocre batches and flops. From the mistakes and books, I learned enough to
hopefully avoid most problems this fall. So maybe the following text isn't
that authoritative after all; at least I tried. :->

############################### Books on Cider ################################

> From Thomas Manteufel:
> What good sources of information is available? Recommend good books, and
> warn us away from bad ones.

> From JaH:
> > From Me:
> > I started making hard cider last fall, with decidely mixed results. Even
> > though I have two books on the subject, I'd sure appreciate more info.
> You wrote me that back in May.
> Could you please post to (the cider DIGEST :-)
> the bibliographies on these.

1) Wines & Beers of Old New England, A How-to-Do-It History
by Sanborn C. Brown, The University Press of New England, ISBN 0-87451-148-8

This is a fascinating look at the history of fermentation in New England.
It includes cider, of course, because the early settlers could grow apples
much better than barley. However, the book does not include lots of
practical advice for modern cider makers, nor does it discuss proper
sanitation in any way.

2) Sweet & Hard Cider (Making It, Using It, and Enjoying It)
by Annie Proulx & Lew Nichols, Garden Way Publishing, ISBN 0-88266-352-6

A relatively good book. It discusses lots about cider, including apple
varieties, growing your own apples, apple cider vinegar, the law on making
fermented apple products, etc. It does offer some advice I don't agree
with, though. (See below for more).

(Note: My wife Diana just read this and says that Annie Proulx is her
cousin; although Diana is currently freaked out by the coincidence, I
want to assure you that my "good" rating was determined before I found
this out, and is therefore unbiased.)

3) Making the Best Apple Cider
by Annie Proulx, Garden Way Publishing, Pownal, Vermont 05261
(This is a bulletin, not a book).

This bulletin is too brief on all topics, except it includes a good
discussion of which apples to use in blending cider.

############################### Apple Varieties ###############################

> From Michael J. Tuciarone:
> Anyway, has anyone had any experience with Gravensteins? What *is*
> a Gravenstein? I have this idea it's a Mott's applesauce apple.

>From reference (2) above, a Gravenstein is a "Medium to high acid, aromatic"
apple. "The apples are bright red, striped, oblate, angular, and rather
lop-sided. The medium to large fruits are firm, juicy, and have an aromatic,
crisp, white flesh. The juice is rich and vinous, and is good to pick up
more subdued blends."

For those of you in the Boston area, you can hand pick Gravensteins right now
at the Nagog Hills Orchard, Nagog Hill Road, Littleton, MA, (508) 486-3264.
Price: $8 per 1/2 bushel. (You can't miss the sign on Route 2 outbound near
the Acton/Littleton border.) And my wife Diana says: "they're pretty good!"

> From Don Reid:
> I am also interested in finding out about "commercial" or ever (shudder)
> frozen juice. I would like to try a few small batches on something
> cheap that I can get before apple season gets here in order to improve
> my chances with the real thing.

If you wanted to go the kit route, my local homebrewing store, the Modern
Brewer (in Cambridge, MA, (617) 868-5580) has cider making kits with canned
cider concentrate. Alas, the kit is not listed in their catalog, so I can't
give you the price.

> From Thomas Manteufel:
> Everyone has their regional favorite apples. What nationally available
> apples (ie. macs or granny smith) produce what flavors? Can you tell the
> difference?

> From Robin Garr:
> I'm hoping to accelerate my learning curve through the information available
> here, and specifically would like to produce a clear, sparkling cider that's
> not too sweet yet avoids the excessive tartness and "watery" quality that
> seem to afflict dry ciders. I assume it's a matter of using enough sugar (or
> non-fermentables) to end up with an appropriate sugar-acid balance.

> From JaH:
> Apples - oops forgot my AHA conference notes. A blend is recommended however.

To have a wine that is "not too sweet yet avoids the excessive tartness and
'watery' quality that seems to afflict dry ciders is a noble goal. What you
are talking about here is balance; the same balance that you look for in wine.
After all, hard cider is nothing more than fruit wine. What you are trying to
balance is the residual sugar, the acids, and the tannins.

To get a good balance, you could go to your chemistry set and put a bunch of
additives into whatever cider comes your way, or you can go for good cider.
This is *my* current problem, finding good cider. According to reference (3)
above, "There are 'perfect' cider apples, those varieties which have a good
balance of aromatic oils, sugar, tannin, and acid, but they're rare and
becoming rarer. The Roxbury Russet, Golded Russet, Ribston Pippin, and
Nonpareil were long treasured as fine single-variety cider apples."

Therefore, "Most of the best ciders and apple juices of the world are blends".
"'Wild' apples make better hard cider than 'tame' apples". "If wild apples
are available, and your cider base is bland and lacking in character, you
can blend in wild apple juice or crab apple juice as you would the juice of
domestic varieties with higher acid and tannin levels." Reference (3) includes
a list of apple varieties broken down into High/Medium/Low Acid, Aromatic,
and Astringent(Tannin) classifications. The list is too long for me to
type here today.


An Important Note:
Reference (2), and a lot of Wine/Beer hobby store advice told me to test
the cider and correct (i.e. increase) its acid content before fermentation.
I found that this is not necessary, especially when you use Red Star
Champagne Yeast (see below).

############################## Avoiding Vinegar ###############################

I have a friend that has tried to make cider many times, but ended up with
vinegar each time. However, I only got vinegar the first time I tried to make
cider, and that was becase I knew nothing about proper sanitation for

> From Dan Graham:
> I know that there are many different ways to make cider. I don't like to
> boil the cider, but I do like to heat it to about 180 F and let it sit
> there for an hour or so to kill off any beasties that lie within.
> I think it has a lot to do with the bacterial nature of your apples and
> air. Here in New Hampshire, if you let cider sit unattended and
> unmodified, it will turn hard, but in a few days, it will turn from hard to
> vinegar.

> From Marc Rouleau:
> In another message Dan Graham suggests pasteurizing the cider to
> kill bacteria. Do infections come from equipment or from the
> apples?

Reference (2) above indicates that "acetobacter (acetic-acid-causing bacteria)
is present in *all* juice, and can survive the anaerobic fermentation, ...
sulfiting, and ... revive to launch an assault on the cider *if it has air*."
(The *emphasis* is from the authors!) They say that pasteurizing will kill the
bacteria. But they *do not* recommend pasteurizing the original, unfermented
cider. Instead, they recommend making sure that the cider has a high enough
acid level (low enough PH), that you add sulfites to the juice before
fermenting, and that you absolutely minimize exposure to the air. They do
say you can pasteurize the feremented cider so it won't turn to vinegar or
to stop fermentation. (More on this below.)

An Important Note:
From reference (2), I get the feeling that cider is even more sensitive to
oxidation than beer. You probably want to avoid any exposure of your cider
to air on those grounds alone.

Your equipment can also pollute the cider. Be sure to use properly sanitatize
anything that will contact the must or fermented cider, by using a B-Brite,
bleach, or metabisulfite sulution.

> From Bob Gorman:
> Is it OK to boil Soft Cider? Or will this cause a hazing problem?
> (I wish sterilize with heat rather than with chemicals this time)

Reference (2) indicates that pasteurizing cider can "damage its delicate
flavor". It doesn't say if pasteurizing will increase pectin hazing. But if
it did, I would avoid using pectic enzyme to clear it up because (2) says that
"studies show that ciders and apple juices clarified by the use of pectic
enzymes are higher in methanol, the result of the demethylation of juice

> Marc Rouleau:
> Does anyone use campden tablets? Do they affect the flavor?

> John Simpson:
> Campden tables (a sulpher compound whose name escapes me) impart no
> flavor _if_ you add them before an open fermentation (i.e. when using a
> fermentation lock or a bucket covered with a cloth). The sulfer
> compounds get expelled with the CO2. If you don't give them anywhere to
> go they're going to haunt you forever. I've used them in Mead and Ginger
> Beer with no ill effects and no infections. Some friends of mine were
> making a batch of Ginger Beer and "just to be safe" chucked a tablet or
> two into each two liter bottle before setting them aside to carbonate.
> Bleh! I should have gotten an award for drinking a whole glass with a
> straight face (it was in public, we figured out what went wrong later).

Sulfiting is the process of introducing SO2 as a bacteria and wild yeast
killer to the must. ("Must" is the term for soon-to-be-fermented juice.
In making cider, it has the same general meaning as "wort" does when making
beer.) You can get free SO2 into your must in many ways. The easiest way
for us at-home folks is to use Sodium or Potassium metabisulfite. A Campden
tablet is 12 grains of sodium metabisulfite.

An Important Note:
Reference (2) indicates that the amount of sulfite you should add varies in
relationship to your must's PH (it includes a table to guide you, but
basically: the higher the PH the more sulfite). I found that it is very
easy to get a nasty sulfite odor in your final product, so don't use as much
sulfite as (2) tells you! I would use about 1/2 a Campden tablet for 1
gallon of must. Reference (2) also says to add the sulfite 24 hours before
fermenting. Keep that must refrigerated during that 24 hours! I've also
heard advice to add sulfite every time you rack the cider for two reasons:
To prevent oxidation and to kill off any bacteria that may have fallen in.
Don't do this! Just make sure that you rack very cleanly and without froth.

################################ Adding Sugar #################################

> From Chip Hitchcock:
> My girlfriend has fallen for Strongbow cider (well, it's cheaper than
> framboise, which she's also developed a taste for) and I'm looking to make
> something similar. I see a lot of talk about added sugar; is that really
> necessary for something that says it's 6% alcohol? JaH has mentioned straight
> cider going from 1.050 to 1.010, which (according to my hydrometer) should
> give 5.3%. For a non-spiced cider, is brown sugar appropriate, or should I
> just add a little priming (corn) sugar to tweak the alcohol? Any guesses on
> how dissimilar English apples would be to what I can get in New England? I
> know a lot of English cider ( =? "scrumpy" ) is coarse and very alcoholic,
> but Strongbow seems relatively smooth.

> From Bob Gorman:
> What is approximate Specific Gravity of Soft Cider?
> (Percentage of fermentables would be better)

I'm glad you asked that. There are more kinds of cider sickness than just
acetification. Reference (2) says that you really want your cider to have more
than 5.75% alcohol in order for it to store well (9% if you don't pasteurize
it!). The unpreserved cider that I buy at my local farm stand, from Carlson
Orchard in Harvard MA, usually has a 1.044 specific gravity, which is about
5.5% potential alcohol. (Note that the Carlson Orchard's wife is my wife
Diana's second cousin; how's that for further coincidence?) Reference (1) says
that healthy apples usually produce cider of about 5% alcohol, but the late
1700's tavern standard was 7.5% alcohol, incresed partly in order to improve
the cider's keeping quality. So I think you definately want to add some sort
of sugar to keep your cider healthy!

> From Thomas Manteufel:
> Sugar. What kinds can I add? Does brown sugar or molasses change the
> flavor? Malt can be added. What other fermentable or unfermentable sugars
> do people add? What off tastes can be produced?

> From JaH:
> Sugar - I've used Brown, dextrose & cane. I've also heard Molasses being
> used. Looks like any kind can/will do here, after all you don't have to
> worry about it tasting "cidery" :-)

Reference (2) recommends "sugar, boiled cider concentrate, and honey" as
"most suitable for modern tastes." "The sugars can be cane or corn - white,
brown, or golden. The darker sugars slightly flavor the finished cider.
The best honeys are apple blossom, orchard, and clover honey, all delicate
and harmonious with apple aromatics. Buckwheat and goldenrod honey overpower
the cider."

Reference (2) also says "Fresh cider, reduced from one-half to one-quarter of
its original volume by boiling, was called 'boiled cider' and was often
used as a pre-fermentation sweetener to boost alcohol."

Reference (2) says: "If molasses is used, the entire barrel of cider ... will
taste powerfully of sorghum. Maple syrup ... can do strange things to cider.
(Those who) have tried it ... reported the finished cider has an off-flavor
faintly resembling mold."

Remember that Papazians "Complete Joy of Home Brewing" points out that
brown sugar is white sugar with molasses added.

Reference (2) also says that natural raisins have "served as both yeast and
nutrients to cider for centuries".

######################### Yeast and Fermenting, etc. ##########################

> Bob Gorman:
> How high does a Starting Gravity have to be to have a fairly sweet
> resulting Hard Cider: if using champagne yeast?; if using ale yeast?
> (Say with Red Star Champagne and Whitbread Ale yeast)

Regardless of yeast, you have to chose a few things first:

1) What % alcohol do you want.
2) How sweet do you want the cider to be?

This will determine your initial and final SG. Then you just have to control
the fermentation somehow.

The following table from reference (2) shows the final SG and its relationship
with the cider characteristics.

Specific Gravity Cider Characteristics
---------------- ---------------------
1.000 - 1.005 Dry Cider
1.010 - 1.015 Semisweet cider with 20-30 grams of sugar/liter
1.018 - 1.020 Sweet cider with 30-40 grams of sugar/liter
1.020 - 1.025 Very sweet cider

Therefore, to get a slightly sweet semisweet cider at 6%, you'll want an inital
SG of around 1.065. (I eyeballed this from my triple-scale hydrometer.) The
trick is getting the yeast to quit at the right time. You can do several
things to stop the fermentation:

1) Add potassium sorbate (also called sorbistat K). This stuff is
probably available at your local homebrewing store. 1/2 teaspoon per
gallon will stop fermentation. This is the exact same stuff that is
used as a preservative in store-bought cider.

This answers:
> From Don Reid:
> There was a mention of additives retarding the yeast.
> Has anyone got more info?

2) Pasteurize the cider at the appropriate stage. Reference (2) says
"place the bottels in a canner or, for the tall quart bottles, in
a deeper kettle. The bottles should be in racks and covered with
water to a level an inch above the caps. Bring the water to a boil,
boil for sixty seconds, then turn off the heat and raise the rack to
let the bottles cool. When cool enough to handle, lift out the
bottles carefully, avoiding drafts or stray splashes of cold water.
Place them on their sides on towels or layers of newspaper.
Don't let the bottles touch. The air should circulate around them."

Amazingly, the above paragraph is about pasteurizing carbonated
cider. The idea is to ferment the cider dry, add additional sugar
to bring it up to your sweetness standards, allow to condition for
3-4 days, then pasteurize. If anybody has the guts to do it this
way and it works without explosions, I'd like to hear about it!

3) Control the yeast itself. See below for an idea on this.

> From Dan Hall:
> I pitched Red Star champagne yeast.
> And take Jay's recommendation of a less-attenuative yeast to heart. The
> starting gravity of my cider was about 1.050. The final gravity was 0.995!
> Strong, but unbelievably dry. I need some sweetness in there for
> drinkability.

Well, not knowing about attenuative yeasts, let me say what I found. I HATE
RED STAR CHAMPAGNE YEAST (at least for apple cider). The resulting cider
was Dry and Tart. Do not add any acid to any must which you intend to ferment
with this yeast - I regretted it everytime.

> From Marc Rouleau:
> Will use of an unattenuative yeast alone suffice to leave residual sweetness?
> My impression is that unattenuativeness is due mainly to the inability to
> ferment certain sugars and to a lesser degree to the inability to survive in
> high-alcohol solutions. Could it be that even unattenuative yeasts will
> ferment all the sugars in soft cider? If so, is there enough sugar in soft
> cider for the alcohol level to kill an unattenuative yeast?

I did try and like Lalvin dry wine yeasts #1122 and #1118. The #1122 in
particular seemed to leave a little sweetness, even in must that wasn't
fortified with extra sugar before fermentation. I intend to try ale yeasts
too, hoping that they'll quit a little early.

However, I agree with Marc that it is probably not inability to ferment the
fruit sugars that causes the yeast to quit. Instead, I have a theory about
why a yeasts stops fermenting in cider: lack of nutrients. According to
reference (2), "the ... nutrients available (are) minimal in apple juices". If
you can somehow minimize the nutrients, the fermentation will be slower, but
the yeast will be less likely to finish the fermentation.

An Important Note:
Reference (2) states that the ubiquitious montrachet all-purpose wine yeast
is not recommended for cider. It can cause a H2S rotten egg smell in your

Another Important Note:
Some texts (indeed, even reference (2) above) council you to add yeast
nutrients (which are basically ammonium sulphate and thiamine) to your
cider. I would not unless your fermentation gets complete stuck at a very
sweet point. Yeast nutrients will pretty much guarantee a completely dry

There may also be a way to reduce the nitrogen in your must to begin with.
Reference (2) talks about how the French make a wonderful sweet cider with a
natural method (no sulphites or sugar fortification). In the first, very slow
stage of fermentation, the must is left in a "defacation vat", where a brown
scum called "chapeau brun" forms on top and the lees sink. (Evidently, this
is called "keeving" instead of "defacation" in Britain.) In every batch that
I made, both these things happened, even though I pitched yeast that was rarin'
to go. According to the book, "Most of the yeasts, bacteria, and molds are
captured in the lees and chapeau brun. This process brings about an important
decrease in the nitrogen content of the juice; deprived of nitrogen the must
ferments very slowly and gradually purifies itself, becoming increasingly
likely to give a naturally sweet cider."

This gives rise to the third method of stopping fermentation:

3) Control the yeast by removing nutrients. Rack the clear must from
between the lees and chapeau brun before full primary fermentation
begins. This will be tricky to time; you'll have to watch your cider
closely. (If you let it go too far, the active fermentation will mix the
whole shebang up.) Be sure to keep the cider pretty cool at this stage;
reference (2) recommends 50-56 degrees F.

I also think it will be pretty important to control the amount of
yeast that you pitch.

A fourth possibilty is also raised in (4): Rack and/or filter the cider
at appropriate times to remove the cider from the yeast. Since I don't
have a filtration setup, and I don't want to rack too much, I'm not going
to try this one.

######################## What Am I Going To Try First? ########################

> From Thomas Manteufel:
> Please list amounts in your recipes if possible.

Here is the first recipe that I'm going to try:

Jay Hersh's recipe for draft cider, modified with my own details and
adjusted for my 3 gallon carboy:

@) If I can, I'll use 3/4 gallon wild or crab apple juice with 2.25 gallons
of farmstand sweet cider.
A) Add 1/2 of a crushed Campden tablet to each of the three gallons of
cider. Refrigerate overnight.
B) Place 2 gallons of cider into a sanitized carboy.
C) Boil .5 gallons of water or cider with .75 to 1 lb sugar and .75 to
1 lb of light, unhopped malt. Cool to 160 degrees F. Add to carboy.
(If I cannot get wild/crab cider, I'm tempted to throw in 3/4 teaspoon
of grape tannin at the end of the boil.)
D) Top off carboy, but leave about .5 inches free below the start of curve
of neck.
E) Pitch 1/3 package of dry Lalvin #1122 wine or 1/4 package of Whitbread
ale yeast.
F) Cover carboy with sanitized air lock. Maintain at around 55-60 degrees F.
G) When chapeau brun is fully formed, rack cleanly to another carboy.
H) Ferment at 55-60 degrees F (maybe 5 degrees warmer) until desired final
specific gravity / sweetness, or hopefully it will stop at the right
place. Be prepared for blow-off if the fermentation gets wild in the
initial stage. The full fermentation might take a month or more, so I'll
rack after 2-3 weeks if there is a lot of lees and the cider is not *too*
I) If the fermentation quit early, I'll add small amounts of sterilized
yeast nutrient until the fermentation hits the right place.
J) If it quit at the right place (as I hope), I'll pitch another 1/8 - 1/4
teaspoons of yeast before bottling so that the fresh yeast will be able
to carbonate the cider.
K) If the cider went dry, I'll add 1/2 cup of sugar before bottling, and
add sweet soft cider before drinking as Chris Woodward suggested.

Here is another recipe for you new cider makers that is very easy to make. It
worked great for me, and can be done with no equipment but an air lock and
blow-off tube:

A) Buy a 1 gallon jug of cider. Let it sit until it is at fall room
temperature (around 70 degrees, but +/- 10 degrees is OK).
B) Open the cider, and pitch in 1/3 to 1/2 packet of Lavlin #1122 dry
wine yeast.
C) Cover tightly with a sanitized stopper fitted with a blow off tube.
D) When blow-off subsides, replace blow-off tube with a sanitized air lock.
Keep fermenting at room temperature.
E) Cider should be fully fermented in 1-2 weeks. Rack off the cider or
carefully pour the cider off of the lees.
F) Drink the cider still with a little sweet cider. Be sure to tightly
cover the cider, and keep it in your refrigerator. I found that the
cider really didn't need to age in order to be enjoyable.

Or, bottle with 1/6 cup of sugar dissolved in 1/2 cup of boiling water.
Let the cider condition/age for 1-2 weeks. Enjoy.

For those of you wondering how the cider came out being fermented in a plastic
gallon jug: I found absolutely no traces of any plastic or chemical taste in
my batch.


Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1991 10:45:59 EDT
From: (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: What a concept?

A cider mailing list? What could you learn from a cider list? All you
need to make cider is apple squeezin's and yeast. Right? Wrong, I guess.
How about some malt, maybe crystal malt. What a great idea! Every cider
I've had or made has been *dry*. Crystal, or maybe cara-pils, may be the
perfect addition.

Re. unnatenauative yeast: I've used Pasteur champagne as found it too
attenuative (for cider and for mead). I've got a mead going now with
Montrechet wine yeast, which is supposed to be less attenuative. Perhaps
the Mont. yeast would also be good for cider?

And, thanks Jay, for another work diversion.

Russ Gelinas


End of Cider Digest

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