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Cider Digest #0634
Subject: Cider Digest #634, 21 December 1996
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #634 21 December 1996
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Hornsby's--what is it? (Nick Cuccia)
Hornsbys' (was Re: Cider Digest #633, 17 December 1996) ("Dana H. Myers")
calcium chloride (Carrick Legrismith)
Re: Hornsby's - What IS it? (Ben Brinkmann)
Re: Hornsby's - What IS it? (Michael L. Hall)
Stevia (Glenn & Kristina Matthies)
Re: Hornsby's cider (PickledMan)
cider apples (Derek Bisset)
Hornsby's - What IS it? (Brian Black)
Re: Cider Digest #633, 17 December 1996 (William J. Rhyne)
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Subject: Re: Hornsby's--what is it?
From: Nick Cuccia <cuccia@Talamasca.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 22:19:29 -0800
Dick, I'm not quite sure what it is, either. I tried some once, and it
definitely didn't taste anything like any cider I've had before.
However, as you've stated, the address on the label states that it's from
Modesto, California--the same city that is home of the manufacturers of Night
Train Express, Thunderbird, and Bartles & Jaymes.
Yes, you've guessed it. I'm almost completely certain that Hornsby's is another
fine product from the Ernest and Julio Gallo wine family.
- --Nick
------------------------------
Subject: Hornsbys' (was Re: Cider Digest #633, 17 December 1996)
From: "Dana H. Myers" <myers@bigboy.West.Sun.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 23:21:50 -0800 (PST)
In: Cider Digest #633, 17 Dec 1996, Dick Dunn wrote:
> Subject: Hornsby's - What IS it?
> From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
> Date: 13 Dec 96 14:23:31 MST (Fri)
>
> Scott Bauer's tasting report in the last issue reminds me of a question
> I've been meaning to ask here: Does anybody know what "Hornsby's" really
> is? Coming out of Modesto, CA, there's good reason to start off with a bit
> of skepticism or at least a don't-make-assumptions attitude.
Modesto is a *huge* hint. What else comes from Modesto? E&J Brandy.
Bartles and James thingies. Gallo Wine. Right: Ernest and Julio Gallo.
Next hint: look at the label on a B&J thingy lately? It doesn't have
grape wine anymore (I'm pretty sure they used to, probably made from Thompson
seedless). B&J concoctions are made with apple wine - i.e., cider.
> The label is
> singularly uninformative. It's labeled "Draft Cider"--of course, it's
> *not* draft, but that's a widespread perversion of the word in the US. The
> last time I checked, the word "apple" was conspicuously absent from any-
> where on the label. The product is identified as "An Alcohol Beverage".
> That is about as non-committal as the law allows. A Hornsby's ad I saw
> recently proclaims that it's "Not Your Usual" but stops right there, short
> of the noun that would tell me WHAT it's not my usual version of. Is it
> a "cider" (in the sense we use the term here) at all...or is it some cousin
> of the wine cooler?
Given that "wine coolers" are now made from apple wine, I think the answer
is yes all the way around.
I tried Hornsbys'. It was OK, something I might drink when the Olde
English 800 runs out ;-) (another hint: I haven't had OE 800 in this
decade, or maybe even the last ten years). I tend to believe Hornsbys'
is something based on a mediocre cider with natural flavors and sugar
and stuff added, though it didn't taste all that natural.
> OK, maybe I'm being too suspicious, but when advertising dodges the obvious
> question of what is being advertised, the purpose is more often to be
> evasive than to be subtle. Can anybody fill in some info on Hornsby's?
I was tempted to call up Ernest and Julio and ask for more info, but I
just wasn't quite curious enough. Anyway, I recently discovered Ace
Cider, made somewhere else in the Central Valley (maybe Fresno), and
it is *much* better than Hornsbys', comparable to the stuff I used to
swill when I lived outside London.
Dana K6JQ
Dana@Source.Net
------------------------------
Subject: calcium chloride
From: Carrick Legrismith <hiscope@c4systm.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 07:57:43 -0500
Calcium chloride is hard to find but it is out there. I had first tried the
local health food stores and came up empty. They told me calcium chloride
was table salt, although they refused to do a blind taste test with sodium
cloride. I finally found calcium chloride, USP, at my local small town
pharmacy in a chemical supplier's book for $13.00 @ lb and had it within a
week.
>Can you explain some of this? In particular, I though calcium chloride
>was only available through professional outlets...home brewers and cider
>makers like myself don't see it available anywhere (US), but would LOVE
>to (useful for beer also.)
Carrick Legrismith
Poison Ivy Brewery
Clinton, Michigan
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Hornsby's - What IS it?
From: Ben Brinkmann <brinkmann.benjamin@mayo.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:44:56 -0600
> Subject: Hornsby's - What IS it?
> From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
> Date: 13 Dec 96 14:23:31 MST (Fri)
>
> Scott Bauer's tasting report in the last issue reminds me of a question
> I've been meaning to ask here: Does anybody know what "Hornsby's" really
> is?
Nasty tasting stuff, IMHO. I picked up a couple of bottles a while
back to try it, and yuck-O! I had the same question, particularly
after tasting it, and I read through the label and ingredient list
trying to figure out what it is. I don't believe it is an actual cider-
in fact, I think there's very little apple juice in it at all, and most
of the "apple" flavors come about artificially. (This was a while ago-
apologies if I'm not remembering well) I think it usually runs about 6%
alc, which I suppose is reasonable for a carbonated "draft"-style cider.
My take on it is that it's Zima with artificial apple flavors added.
Ben Brinkmann
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Hornsby's - What IS it?
From: hall@galt.c3.lanl.gov (Michael L. Hall)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 10:10:51 -0700
Dick Dunn sez:
> OK, maybe I'm being too suspicious, but when advertising dodges the obvious
> question of what is being advertised, the purpose is more often to be
> evasive than to be subtle. Can anybody fill in some info on Hornsby's?
The quick answer is: you don't care, it's not very good.
I'm in the process of tasting as many commercial ciders as I can and
making accurate, hopefully objective, judging notes on them. When I
finish, I'll release it to this forum. Since you asked about Hornsby's,
I'll give the info I have on it.
***
George Hornsby's Pubdrafts Draft Cider, made by Ernest & Julio Gallo, 6.4 %/v,
180 calories/12 oz., "contains zero (0)% juice", ingredients list cider
first, label is a gold shield on a blue background with a rhinoceros head
on the shield.
Tasting notes: Tastes somewhat thin and watery. Some apple notes, but weak.
Carbonation level is low. Light golden color. Medium sweetness. Has a
background taste like a light, slightly acidic wine. Little aftertaste.
Rating: 6/10
***
I've also got a bottle of the dark version by Hornsby's, but I haven't
tasted it yet. I didn't really like the Hornsby's at all --- not much
apple character. In retrospect my rating may be too high. One problem
that I'm having is that if I only taste one at a time, it's hard to give
a comparative score. It does make it easier to concentrate on the
aspects of a particular cider, though. Looks like I'll have to have a
cider tasting.
Just so I don't seem entirely negative, I'll give another note from
my collection. This one was a surprise; I didn't expect it to be so
good.
***
Wild Country Normandy Hard Cider, Cidre Normand, produced by C.C.L.F. -
Livarot, France, imported by Fischer Beverage International, 3 %/v, 146
calories/11.2 oz., "made from fermented apple juice", label shows a boar's
head coming out of a French horn, with green and white lettering on a reddish
pink background (rather gaudy).
Tasting notes: Apple comes through strongly. Slight malic acid sour notes.
Some woody notes. Medium to below medium body. Alcohol level is low.
Carbonation level is medium low. Medium to above medium sweetness. Deep
golden color. Lingering apple aftertaste, like you just finished eating an
apple.
Rating: 8.5/10
***
That was one of my favorites so far. And you'll be happy to note, Dick,
that I was able to purchase both of these at Liquor Mart in your home
town of Boulder (I live in Los Alamos, NM and make it up to Denver for
various beer and mead judgings).
Mike Hall
Los Alamos Atom Mashers
------------------------------
Subject: Stevia
From: Glenn & Kristina Matthies <borst@localnet.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 20:33:09 -0500
A while back, there was some talk of using a very sweet herb called stevia.
I had discussed this off line with "Pickleman". I have since lost his email
address (sorry). I have found a mail order source for live stevia plants.
Stevia rebaudiana is available from Nichols Garden Nursery, 1190 North
Pacific Highway, Albany, Oregon, 97321-4580; 1 (541) 928-9280 is their
phone. Standard disclaimers apply. I have yet to purchase any myself but
have dealt with Nichols in the past.
>From earlier converstions, it appears stevia may be better suited for beer
than cider. I plan to try it in a stout once I get some.
Glenn
Glenn & Kristina Matthies
Lockport, NY
borst@localnet.com
Glenn's Buffalo Beer Page
http://www.localnet.com/~borst/index.html
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Hornsby's cider
From: PickledMan <wrp2@axe.humboldt.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 19:27:41 -0800 (PST)
Dick,
I remember reading an issue of Celebrator a while back on cider.
In it, a person from Gallo, the winery that makes Hornsby's, was quoted as
saying it is "an apple-based product." Usually, I'm not one to quote, but
that one stuck. I also stopped buying the stuff. I make my own and it
tastes better (was not the case at the time I bought the stuff).
PickleMan
.."(PickleMan) always makes a fashion statement. Unfortunately, it says,
'Don't try this at home.'" -Chikngrrl
------------------------------
Subject: cider apples
From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@bc.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 09:31:49 -0800
For years it was frustrating to read about making cider while at the same
time having no access to cider apples of the kinds used in traditional
cider making in regions of England and France. It is clear from reading
the excellent information from experts like Andrew Lea that these apple
varieties give a superior cider.
I still occasionally read that traditional cider varieties are very
difficult to obtain here in Canada and in the U.S.Yet for those who are
willing to graft their own trees, most specialty varieties have been
available for years.
Varieties like Dabinett,Chisel Jersey, Michelin,Kingston Black, and some
of the Normandy apples are available here in B.C. and I have seen a
couple of Washington State catalogues with several listed.In Ontario, the
Agriculture Canada Smithfield Experimental Farm has sent scion wood out
and Southmeadow in the U.S. has had scion wood of cider varieties
available for years.
I find that now I able to use varieties producing a properly balanced
juice that a lot of the problems I had with off tastes have disappeared.
And the cider tastes good as well.
A merry cider Christmas to all.
------------------------------
Subject: Hornsby's - What IS it?
From: Brian Black <b.black@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 20:05:04 -0800
Well, Hornsby's is NOT cider - and it is irritating that they can get
away with this. It would be more properly called "Fruit juice based
fermented drink". The label here in Michigan says "contains no apple
juice" - some "cider". My guess? It contains mostly grape wine that
Gallo can do nothing else with, some apple flavoring, lots of other
fakey stuff (color, etc.), and really bad marketing mixed in. This, no
doubt, is the brainchild of some marketing study, and internal Gallo
needs (speaking as a corporate marketing refugee). And yes, it is the
ugly step-child of the "wine cooler". In fact, try this simple test at
home: open a bottle, close your eyes, and drink. Now think of two
things: good apple cider, and a wine cooler. Which does it remind you
of? I thought so.
Brian Black
Grand Rapids, Michigan
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #633, 17 December 1996
From: rhyne@pop.winterlan.com (William J. Rhyne)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 00:00:22 -0800
RE:Hornsby "cider"
I had the same questions in my mind as Dick Dunn when I read the Hornsby
bottle label. What is the base juice? What is this product? I assume that
it is either repackaged Bartles & James or Boones Farm based on the
company's past history.
Gallo (based on an offhand comment from a UC Extension professor to me) is
very involved with making apple wine so I would assume that it is apple
cider in the bottle. Why so evasive?
Laters,
Bill Rhyne
===========================
Callie Konno
===========================
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #634
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