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Cider Digest #1598

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Cider Digest
 · 9 Apr 2024

Subject: Cider Digest #1598, 4 December 2010 

Cider Digest #1598 4 December 2010

Cider and Perry Discussion Forum

Ben Davis (Dick Dunn)
Sparkling Cider - Beer Gun/Counterpressure Bottling (Rick Garvin)
Traditional cider apple price (Jack O Feil)
Ben Davis (John Mott)
Ice Cider (Thom Mitchell)
Re: Sparkling Cider (Dick Dunn)

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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn

Subject: Ben Davis
From: Dick Dunn <>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 09:24:06 -0700

wrt Jim's story in the last CD -
Ben may have been a rather dry character himself, but one of his kids
turned out to be really outstanding.

Ben Davis is a parent of Cortland--which shares the characteristics of
brilliant red skin and pure white flesh. However, Cortland juices very
well. It's also a good table fruit because it doesn't brown out--you
can cut it hours ahead of serving. Makes a decent pie. And if it has
the right circumstances for ripening, it's good for cider.
- --
Dick Dunn Hygiene, Colorado USA


Subject: Sparkling Cider - Beer Gun/Counterpressure Bottling
From: Rick Garvin <>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 15:28:33 -0500

Joe, I've used both the beer gun and counterpressure bottling to good
effect. A lot of the homebrew cider makers in our area do as well, especially
for competitions. I follow the same protocol I use for counterpressure/beer
gun bottling homebrew:
- - pressurize to 12 psi at very cold temperatures, I use 28F
- - maintain at 12 psi until no additional CO2 is absorbed, I do this with
bottled CO2 for about a week
- - chill the clean & sanitized bottles and bottling gear prior to use -
this reduces foaming and CO2 loss, I leave my bottles submerged in 25 ppm
iodophor overnight in the chiller with the product to be packaged

I've never measured CO2 in the bottle directly, but it has the "right"
mouth feel. The pros I know who do measure CO2 and air content use devices
from Zahm & Nagel. They also have a counterpressure bottling system with
detailed instructions, but no mention of recommended CO2 volumes -

Cheer, Rick

Rick Garvin


Subject: Traditional cider apple price
From: Jack O Feil <>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:42:48 -0800

I live in an area in Washington State where apples are grown by corporate
farms in several thousand acre blocks. At my forty acre orchard, I cannot
realize enough profit to survive against that competition. That said I am
looking to stay in business as a fruit grower (over one hundred years of
family fruit growing) with a road side stand and doing farm markets. No
question about it Cidereries are on the rise and they will need cider
apples. My thought is to grow, either by contract or direct farm sales to
those interested in becoming commercial cider makers, I can calculate
growing and harvesting costs but what is a fair market price for cider
apples in quantity for profit. In this State there are many wineries but
most of the wine grape juice is grown in one area and that juice is
purchased by wineries who grow few (mostly for show) if any wine grapes.
Obviously the productivity is a factor with biennial bearing not
acceptable. So, how are growers in the Mid West and East pricing their
cider fruit? If this information sensitive get hold of me direct, Thanks
for any help.
Sincerely, Jack Feil, East Wenatchee , Washington.


Subject: Ben Davis
From: John Mott <>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 10:37:27 -0500

I think it was the Ben Davis they used to call the "mortgage buster."
Northern growers could ship them south at good prices throughout the
winter and they never went bad - at least not on the outside.


Subject: Ice Cider
From: Thom Mitchell <>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 15:26:58 -0500

One of the places I get my grape-based wine from is importing an Ice Cider
from Canada into the US, it's retailing for $30 a 375ml bottle. Has anyone
on the list had or made an Ice Cider? Just curious about the process; as
well as what the freezing of the picked apples does to the flavor, joice and
sugar profiles. Is this something can be done artifically? Has anyone on the
list done this? If so I'd be interested in your experience and thoughts.
Thanks, Thom

The link and info is below. I have no affiliation with the
chwine.comsite or with the producer other than I buy my wine from
The Producer: The Seller:

*Antonlino Brongo Cryomalus Ice Cider 375ml price $30*
*Vintage:* 2008
*Appelation:* Saint-Joseph-du-Lac, in the region of the Basses-Laurentides,
Quebec, Canada
*Apple Vairetal:* 57% Macintosh, 18% Empire, 18% Lobo, 9% Spartan
*Alcohol by volume:* 10%
Taste:* With a rich gold color lightly red, the 2008 Cryomalus has notes of
hazelnuts and apricot at the nose. In the mouth, apple and apricot notes
mixed with a long and persistent flavour of honey and citrus. The balance
between the sugar and the acidity gives a perfect match with cheeses, foie
gras and fruity recipes.

*Cameron Confidential:* In short, the product is made much the same way that
ice wine is made; however, while grapes are typically left to hang on the
vine, ice cider apples are picked in September and then left outdoors to
freeze naturally before a gentle pressing and a fifty day, natural
fermentation in stainless steel tanks. The resulting cider is left to sit on
the lees for about 4 months before soutirage and bottling. The 2008 vintage
Cryomalus is a blend of Macintosh, Empire, Spartan and Lobo apples from 50
year old apple trees in the Saint-Joseph-du-Lac region of Quebec in Canada.
More information can be found here at Antolino
The wine is best enjoyed out of a traditional dessert wine glass or a pinot
noir styled glass with a big bowl and smaller aperture. Take advantage of
our sale in just a few hours to try a bottle or two of one of the coolest
new ?wines? you will ever try, Cryomalus.


Subject: Re: Sparkling Cider
From: Dick Dunn <>
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 22:19:03 -0700

Joe Conway asks about carbonating with CO2 (rather than priming and bottle
> The bright tank and counter pressure filler seem to be the standard. Has
> anyone had success with smaller batches (5 gal or so) using other methods?
> One I might try is the corny keg with a counter pressure bottler or beer gun
> filler...

I've used a CO2 system with corny keg for carbonating cider or mead for
some time now. It works well; just give it time to absorb the CO2.

Unless you want a lot of carbonation, you really don't need any special
filling methods/tools. A standard "picnic tap" (cobra head) on a
convenient length of hose will do it. Have a little more carbonation in
the cider than you want; have the cider in the keg cold; fill bottles
gently[*]. You don't lose all that much carbonation as long as you cap
reasonably soon after filling. I might fill a case (half the keg), setting
caps on top as I go, then crimp the caps down, then back to filling.

[*]"gently" means that you don't have rip-roaring pressure behind you when
you're bottling; you don't need the full carbonation pressure. It also
means that you press and release the tap handle quickly while filling,
so that it's either full-open or completely closed. The common mistake
is to try to modulate the flow by holding it partially open, but this
actually creates turbulence that pulls CO2 out.

> Some questions are:
> How many atmospheres or psi and for how long in the conditioning stage?
> What should final psi be for sparkling cider?
> What should final psi be for sparkling cider in the bottle?

What the pressure "should" be depends on what you like, of course.

But a main point here is that you've got to think "temperature" along with
"psi". The colder the cider is, the more CO2 it will absorb and the faster
it will absorb a given amount. If you can carbonate at 35 F, you don't
need as much pressure or time as if you're carbonating at 50 F.

The flip side of that is, the serving temperature you intend will have
a major effect on how much CO2 you have to add to get a given level of
sparkle at the table.

Experiment! You can force-carbonate a corny keg of cider, try it off the
tap and see if you like the level, then fill a couple of bottles and let
them settle a day or two, cool to desired serving temp and see if you like
them. Repeat, adjusting pressure/time, until satisfied. The only down-
side is that you'll be continually tasting cider; I assume you can live
with that!

Oh, if you experiment and find you've got too -much- carbonation, just
bring the keg up to room temp and vent it a few times over the course
of a day.

- --
Dick Dunn Hygiene, Colorado USA


End of Cider Digest #1598

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