Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Lambic Digest #0777
Return-Path: postmaster at lance.colostate.edu
Received: from srvr8.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr8.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.81]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA00507 for <spencer at srvr5.engin.umich.edu>; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 04:27:40 -0500 (EST)
Received: from totalrecall.rs.itd.umich.edu (totalrecall.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.144.16]) by srvr8.engin.umich.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id EAA26392 for <spencer at engin.umich.edu>; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 04:24:33 -0500
Received: by totalrecall.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.12/2.3)
with X.500 id EAA08398; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 04:24:33 -0500
Received: from longs.lance.colostate.edu by totalrecall.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.12/2.3)
with ESMTP id EAA08394; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 04:24:32 -0500
Received: (daemon at localhost) by longs.lance.colostate.edu (8.6.12/8.6.5a (LANCE Revision: 1.3)) id AAA23066 for reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:30:11 -0700
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:30:11 -0700
Message-Id: <199602020730.AAA23066 at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Reply-to: lambic at lance.colostate.edu (postings only - do not send subscription requests here)
Errors-to: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #777 (February 02, 1996)
Lambic Digest #777 Fri 02 February 1996
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Hops? (DoubleDDD)
Re: pellicle and topping off the cask... (Mark Gryska)
Pellicles (Jim Liddil)
re:Pellicles (Jim Liddil)
hells pellicle (isenhour)
Oh and another thing (Jim Liddil)
air (Algis R Korzonas)
Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to:
lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Note that the request address is not an automated server. It forwards
to a real person who may not be able to process the request immediately.
Subscription changes often take 2-5 days, sometimes more.
Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to:
netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Phil Seitz' series on Brewing Belgian Beer is available; the index
from the archives lists individual topics and the complete set.
Start with the help message above then request the index.
A FAQ is also available by netlib; say 'send faq from lambic' as the
subject or body of your message (to netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 02:51:23 -0500
From: DoubleDDD at aol.com
Subject: Hops?
I'm about to brew in the lambic style for the first time and I've got two
questions:
1. What the best way of aging hops? Oven? how much heat? how long? What kind
of hops are most authentic? etc.
2. What determines the amount of Pedio/brett. character? When its introduced?
Original grav.? Temp?
Thanks, Don
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:40:52 -0500
From: mgryska at aai.com (Mark Gryska)
Subject: Re: pellicle and topping off the cask...
Al (Algis R Korzonas) writes:
> As for disturbing the pellicle, I think that it protects the beer "a little,"
> but once the beer is under an airlock (I fermented for several months in
> HDPE and then transfered to glass) it is not really that important whether
> it is disturbed or not. I've read (have not confirmed this with J-P) that
> some Lambiek/Lambik brewers top-up their casks periodically, so this would
> surely disturb the pellicle.
I recall from a visit to Cantillon last year that they do not top off their
casks. I was surprised to learn that about a third of the contents of a cask
are lost to "blowoff" and evaporation and that an additional third is left
behind with the dregs. The third that is left will make its way to bottles.
Whether this is the usual case for a lambic/lambiek brewery I cannot say.
- mg
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 8:17:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Pellicles
> No need to go to all that trouble Al, just get some wheat beer extract and
> old hops. You might even win "Homebrewer of the Year" at the AHA Nationals!
> It's been known to happen! ;^)
>
> MPM
It is not the substrate that matters it is the microorganisms that metabolize
it and the enivronemental conditions.
Al says:
> How about a trade? I'll tell you the significance of the pellicle if you
> give me your Midwest Homebrewer of the Year award...
>
> Just kidding...(you see, I was leading in the standings after four
> competitions, only to be crushed by Tom and Luann at the fifth and
> final competition of the year).
>
> I'm not quite sure which of the microbiota in the soup cause the pellicle
> to form, but I'm quite sure that it's at least partially formed by the
> Pediococcus and the Klockera apiculata (sp?). One important factor is air.
> Yes, air. You won't get a pellicle unless you expose the beer to air.
> I believe that some small amount of exposure to air is important for some
> of the reactions that take place.
Not quite. Pediococcus is a bacteria that prefers anaerobic conditions. It is
typically found in the yeast layer at the bottom of fermenting beer. I have
read no repeorts of it occuring in pelleicles, shery flor etc.
Also I have not read that air is necessary for pellicle formation. The gunk
that grows on top of plamibc or lambic is composed of yeasts that favor
oxidative conditions or simply don't floculate. It has been my experience (not
PhD research with an n=10 in triplicate) that it has a fair amount to do with
the floculating ability of the yeast. You may get a better layer with a lot of
oxygen, I am not sure. But once it is formed I have found that it will float
even after the fermenter has been moved and it has sunk. It floats right back
to the top. The pictures on my web page were taken from a carboy that had been
moved about 4 times until we got the photos right. Look at the krausen a
regular ale will throw using a true top fermenting yeast. Some strains fail to
sink.
Jim Liddil
copyright, trademark, SM, kosher etc. :-) 1996
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 9:07:08 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: re:Pellicles
I said:
> Also I have not read that air is necessary for pellicle formation. The gunk
> that grows on top of plamibc or lambic is composed of yeasts that favor
> oxidative conditions or simply don't floculate.
What I should have said is that the yeast flocullate and then rise to the top.
It is because these yeast do flocculate together as well as due to the growth
of pseudomycellia, that they float.
> Jim Liddil
> copyright, trademark, SM, kosher etc. :-) 1996
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:17:19 -0600 (CST)
From: isenhour at uiuc.edu
Subject: hells pellicle
Tom Fitzpatrick writes quoting Al:
> >Yes, air. You won't get a pellicle unless you expose the beer to air.
> >I believe that some small amount of exposure to air is important for some
>
> Interesting, but this plambic had a glass primary and is in a glass secondary ...
> would the racking provide the necessary air? Also, this batch was "sampled"
The amount of air Al refers to is pretty small, in the homebrew batches
I've made (5-10 gallon), I achieve pellicle in glass, and also in HDPE
plastic (some gas exchange occurs around the lid at least). In a 7 barrel
grundy with about 1/2 barrel or so of headspace (which was air evacuated
pretty well by ferment), a magnificent pellicle formed but it took several
months in one case. It looked like the surface of the moon and had a
diameter of about 4 feet. Can't see too much osmosis thru stainless or the
gasketing:)
good luck,
-john
- --
John Isenhour "unix is not your mother"
Brewmaster/National Judge Joe's (radical) Brewery
Library & Information Science isenhour at uiuc.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:55:30 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Oh and another thing
>
> I'm not quite sure which of the microbiota in the soup cause the pellicle
> to form, but I'm quite sure that it's at least partially formed by the
> Pediococcus and the Klockera apiculata (sp?). One important factor is air.
> Yes, air. You won't get a pellicle unless you expose the beer to air.
> I believe that some small amount of exposure to air is important for some
> of the reactions that take place.
While I'm driving stakes I'll add this. You are not going to find klockera in
the pellicle either. This yeast is not acid or ethanol tolerant. It is killed
off by ethanol concentrations above about 2%. In real lambic beer it is not
found at all after a few weeks. The pellicle is likely made of brettanomyces,
pichia, hansenula and candida species. I have gotten pellicles on beer that
have never had anything other than brett species added at least intentinally.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 10:20:13 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: air
Tom writes (quoting me):
>>I believe that some small amount of exposure to air is important for some
>>of the reactions that take place.
>
>Interesting, but this plambic had a glass primary and is in a glass
>secondary... would the racking provide the necessary air? Also, this batch
>was "sampled" numerous times for tasting and a certain competition :^), so
>there is only about 3.5 gallons left in a 5 gallon carboy ... maybe this
>headspace provides
>enough air?
Hard to say. Monday night I ran across a prinout of Martin Lodahl's post
in this digest regarding the air issue (around March 1992). He said,
basically, that pLambics that he has tasted seem to be "better" from
oxygen-permiable fermenters. I suspect that racking may be enough to cause
a pellicle, but I don't know if it is enough for flavour purposes. When I
made my first pLambiek/pLambic back in 1992, I had made up some 500ml starters
for the Dekkera (aka Brettanomyces) and let them sit for 14 days. Two days
before brewing, I fed them with some more wort. It appears that the oxygen
I introduced to the Pediococcus starter was enough for some change to occur
because it got ropey in two days (strands of stuff suspended near the top --
they looked like a large wet cotton ball to me).
>I know brett works very slowly, but how long does one wait to determine if
>further culture additions are warranted? Again, this plambic is young, about
>5 months in the secondary ...
In my first pLambic/pLambiek, I think it was in the HDPE primary for 3 months
and then in glass secondaries for 5 *more* until I sensed some horsey
character.
Al.
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
-------
