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HOMEBREW Digest #0781

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 · 13 Apr 2024

This file received at Mthvax.CS.Miami.EDU  91/12/13 03:10:59 

HOMEBREW Digest #781 Fri 13 December 1991

Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

DEFUSION (Jack Schmidling)
HBD no. 779 (12-11-91) ("Dr. John")
premix/postmix (korz)
How do you develop a yeast culture? Discussion? (Eric Mintz)
Copper scrubber clogging (Darren Evans-Young)
Fwd: STUFF (Peter Glen Berger)
Re: STUFF (Jack Schmidling)
Transporting Homebrew (FWALTER)
comments on homebrewing (FWALTER)
RE: Artichokes and beer (S94TAYLO)
Zymurgy gadget issue (John S. Link)
Transporting homebrew (Robin Garr)
Carry-on beer on commercial flights (dbreiden)
RE: Homebrew Digest #780 (December 12, 1991) (DAVID)
Seattle Brewpubs (STAFINIAK)
Re: Bunratty Meade (Gordon Baldwin)
cold break, mash out (Russ Gelinas)
Traveling with Homebrew (IO10676)
Re: Homebrew Digest #778 (December 10, 1991) (WEH)
Re: Stuff it Jack (Jason Goldman)
Bad Apples (Ford Prefect)
Kegging Systems (Brian Midura)
What makes top top or bottom bottom (Mike Dobres)
Cold Break ("John Cotterill")
English Bitter Extract recipes (AEW)
Sam Adams claims (Jay Hersh)
planes&Corsendonk (Marcel Levy)
Corona grain mills ("Dr. John")

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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 12:10 CST
From: (Jack Schmidling)

To: Homebrew Digest
Fm: Jack Schmidling

[At the end of all this is some new business...]

From: "Dr. John" <>
Subject: Well, excuuuuuuse me! :-)

> In the interest of helping start the process, at least in a small way, I'd
like to restate the gist of my posting in #774.

Rather than re-invent the wheel, the following are my (JS) comments from
email, sans personal stuff....

> What you perceived as arrogance wasn't intended that way,

We both seem to have a "tone of voice" problem. Sorry if I misread you.

> I have reread the article in question, and I beg to differ. I see no
indication of the number of portions brought to a boil. If we limit our
discussion here to only those "decoctions" which are boiled during the
conversion rest, we probably don't need more than 2, or at most 3, for
temperature maintenance during a 60-minute conversion rest.

I guess you would have to read between the lines and actually do the
procedure to get the full meaning. There are two 60 min "rests" and a 30
minute "rest". Furthermore, the time required to bring each step to
temperature adds another hour or more. The number of quart sized
"decoctions" is considerable. Possibly, more than the whole batch size.

I also, used the term "partial decoction" in describing my process to
indicate that it is a hybrid technique and not necessarly by the book.

>An acid rest, I presume. Might it not be easier, and more expeditious, to
accomplish the acidification with gypsum (when appropriate) or lactic acid?

Reinheightsgbot prevails at the JSP Brewery. I even use organically grown

>And why not do something about the chlorine which so many of us find in our
tap water, or is that taken care of by using the hot water?

I either use previously boiled water or set out the dough-in water the night
before to de-chlorinate. It is very critical to get it out before mixing
with the grain as it will combine with the organics and form nitrosamines.

>A protein rest, I presume. Any particular reason you chose 120 degrees?
Some authors (Miller, p.117; Noonan, p.112; to name two) imply that
122 degrees is optimal. Is an hour really necessary? I've had good luck
with 30 minutes for all-barley-malt beers, and 45 minutes for wheat beers.

First of all, controlling temp throughout the mash to 2 degs, is beyond
anything I am capable of doing. It would be just as useless to have changed
the number to 122 as to really attempt to do it.

This may seem a bit arbitrary and even bazzare but someone posted the profile
that came with a computer controlled, electronic masher he just purchased and
I simply used it as a starting point.

>But if ease is the overriding concern wouldn't it be simpler to use a stiff
mash and additions of heat and boiling water for temperature maintenance?

No doubt. I was trying to get the word out while working on the process. I
am really pushing the enamel kettle, screen and pipe system as an inexpensive
and effective way to get into whole grain. You will note the first article
on the subject totally avoided discussing the process because I didn't know
where I was going with it. I wanted to do everything right and them back off
to simplify it. I needed a target to shoot at.

> I must say that I remain unconvinced that your procedure does "pretty much
the same thing" as a true decoction mash.

Perhaps, [some of the same things], would have been a better choice of words.
I would also like to point out that (if I didn't in the article) that boiling
under the false bottom is to be avoided because of the risk of burning
whatever is under it. Furthermore, I no longer use a false bottom so it is
not even relevant.

NOW, on to new business.....

Last weekend I brewed up a batch with the same ingredients as my standard
"generic ale" and did a "single" temp infusion.

The bottom line is that I lost about 5 points in starting gravity and a
gallon of wort for other reasons, so the loss is a bit more than 5. The good
news is that I finished by tea time instead of the usual, watching the kettle
boil with dinner in my hand.

I put single in quotes because it bacame obvious during the infusion that
this is not a valid test. As it took about an hour to bring the mash from
room temp to 154 degs, one could hardly call it a single temperature. It
spent enough time around the key rest temperatures to have had some influence
on the end results, if these rest temps really do have a purpose.

I suspect that a true single temp infusion would yield an even greater delta
in the SG.

I think the jury (mine anyway) is still out on the boiling sparge water
issue. I think most of the references do not take into consideration the
heat losses in a small batch.

For example, with boiling water going in, the temp of the wort coming out of
the mash kettle is about 130 degs. This of course depends on the rate of
sparging but the experts say the slower the better so the heat problem gets
worse as the sparge time increases.

Unfortunately, I did not have the sense to measure the temp of the water on
top of or within the mash but I would not be surprised to find it nowhere
near boiling and just about where we want it. I seem to have a problem
remembering more than one thing at a time but I will measure it next time.

In the meantime, this is what my intuition is based on....

There is about 3 gallons of water in the mash and an inch of water on top.
The boiling water dribbles into a small soup bowl that is nested in the grain
and the rim is just below or at the water level. Only the water in the bowl
is near boiling and it is all downhill from there to 130 degs.

At the very worst, it seems like we might get something like a mash-out while
sparging, whatever that might be worth.



Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 17:14:32 EST
From: "Dr. John" <>
Subject: HBD no. 779 (12-11-91)

Seasons Greetings all,
First, I'd like to thank those of you who e-mailed me regarding my
questioning of the suitability of Klages for a single temperature
infusion mash. I've decided that I'll go ahead with it, and deal
with any haze, if necessary, at bottling time.

Regarding today's digest (#779):

Ross Haywood:
I don't have the definitive answer, but suspect that brewing
predates the discovery of the "recipe" for stainless steel. I suspect
that your friend is mistaken, and that there are indeed quite a few
copper-only kettles in breweries around the world, and probably were
quite a few more in days gone by.

Norm Pyle (and TSAMSEL):
With a 4-year old and a 1-year old sharing the house with me and my
wife, interruptions are inevitable. I try to schedule the stages of
my brewups around those that I can forecast, and just go with the flow
on the rest. I'm going to try a new approach, for me, this Friday--
nightime brewing. Shouldn't be so many interruptions after the boys are
in their jammies and safely tucked in for the night.

Steve Boege:
I think that the 25 years is a reference to Thomas Hardy Ale. Rumour
has it that you don't even want to consider drinking this stuff till it
is at least 5 years old. If you are confident in your sanitation procedures
I wouldn't think that you'd have much to worry about if you aged your
barleywine for 5 years, though you might want to taste one every 6 months
or so just to make sure it isn't going off :-). I've got some pretty
elderly brews lurking in my basement, from a few batches I made 2-1/2 to
3 years ago, and they are mostly still quite drinkable. And most of these
were from OGs of ~ 1.050.
If you can fit the case "under the seat in front of you or in the overhead
compartment" there doesn't seem to be any reason that they should hassle
you. When I was living out west, family members brought me half-cases
of beer from "God's Country" (Wisconsin for those of you who may be
wondering) a couple times with no problems (they carried it on).

Jack Schmidling:
I, for one, appreciated the tone of your posting today. Noonan does
have a tendency to wander occasionally, and on a first reading even seems
to contradict himself from time to time. But, I've found that after a
few rereadings I can usually ferret out at least the seeds of some useful
information to build on. From my readings of Noonan I've concluded that
you want to boil, to the extent possible, only the thickest part of the
mash for all but the final decoction. The point of the final decoction
is to halt any further enzymatic activity, and this is when you want
to boil the thinnest portion, as this is where the enzymes are reputedly

Jay Hersh:
Maybe you are only halfway in the water :-). Noonan does indeed
instruct us to boil the decoction, for up to 45 minutes in some cases,
prior to returning it to the main mash. With the enzymes mostly in the
liquid part and the thick part being boiled (except for the final
decoction) there isn't too much degradation of enzymatic activity.
Now, on the question of astringency arising from decoctions, I'm at
a loss, but hope someone else has some good information. It hasn't
been a problem for me in the decoction-mashed beers I've made, but
I'd sure like to know why this is. Anyone out there who knows?

Jeff Frane:
Glad to know that I'm not the only one around who actually enjoys
cranking the old Corona by hand. Hell, it's some of the only exercise
I get :-).

Russ Gelinas:
Any chance that you can track down the date on that Times article? I'd
like to read it, but a quick perusal of Monday and Tuesday's issues
failed to uncover it for me.

Rich Kempinski:
Clorax, eh? Is this stuff any relation to that cute little booger
who "speaks for the trees?" :-)

Ooogy wawa,
Dr. John


Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 17:12 CST
Subject: premix/postmix

I used to work in a bar and there we had postmix soft drinks.
I looked into the difference between premix and postmix back
then and here's what I found out:

Premix is *complete* soda.

Postmix is syrup which is mixed with carbonated water at the tap.


Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 16:35:55 MST
From: Eric Mintz <ericm@bach>
Subject: How do you develop a yeast culture? Discussion?

After tasting a variety of homebrews at a recent homebrewers party, I am
finally convinced that yeast really matters (that is, the quality and
type -- especially liquid vs. dry)! After you experience the oders and
aftertastes dry yeast imparts to the brew, you can recognise a beer
brewed with dry yeast in a New York minute.

All that to say that I am going to start experimenting with liquid yeast
in future batches. From the discussions in this newsgroup, that
suggests to me that I will probably end up culturing yeast to squeeze
more than one batch of beer out of it. The discussions I've read so far
agree that you can only use a few generations of propagated yeast before
if begins to degenerate.

My question is this: how did the brewmeisters in the "olden days" (i.e.
before availability of high-tech equipment) culture their yeast? My
understanding is that they didn't even know what did the fermenting
until the late 1800s. At some point, they had to begin with wild yeast.
Then, from that, they cultured an ale or lager. Then there are several
other imporant attributes of the yeast to culture (e.g. attenuation
level, etc.). Anyone know the history of yeast culturing and, much more
importantly to us pragmatics, how we can do it at home? Finally, has
anyone out there had any luck with local wild yeasts (like the Belgians


Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 21:20:01 CST
From: Darren Evans-Young <DARREN@UA1VM.UA.EDU>
Subject: Copper scrubber clogging

Regarding the use of copper scrubbers...

I quit using copper and started using the plastic version due to definite
metallic tastes in my brews. But the following still applies:

I had been using the copper scrubber with a muslin bag over it for many
batches. As my procedures became more streamlined, I found that the
bag started getting clogged. I have since discovered why. After the
boil, I would immediately start siphoning through my counterflow chiller.
There was so much particulate matter floating in the wort, it would clog
up my pickup. Solution: After the boil, I give a good circular swirl
with my spoon, cover the pot and let it sit for at least 15-30 minutes.
This gives the protein goop time to settle while I drink another homebrew.
After that time, I start siphoning and all I get is clear more
clogging! So if you're having that problem, let your wort sit for a bit
before you start siphoning.


| Darren Evans-Young Internet: DARREN@UA1VM.UA.EDU |
| The University of Alabama Phone: (205)348-3988 / 5380 |
| Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0346 (205)348-3993 FAX |


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1991 00:08:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Peter Glen Berger <>
Subject: Fwd: STUFF

I E-mailed Jack Schmidling an explained that I had access to a
metalshop, and requested detailed instructions on how to build my own
grain mill. Here is the response I received. I have edited it, but
retain a copy of the full text for all interested parties.

- ---------- Forwarded message begins here ----------

From: (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: STUFF
To: (Peter Glen Berger)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 8:10:51 CST
In-Reply-To: <>; from "Peter Glen Berger" at Dec 10, 91 11:11 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

Details are up to you but here is enough to get you started...


[21 lines of ad copy explaining what a grain mill is deleted]


The mill consists of two 1.5 in rollers, driven by a 1/30 HP
electric motor. The motor drives one of the rollers through
a set of reduction pullies at a speed of about 300 RPM. The
other is driven by rubber friction rings from the first. It
is designed to stall in the event of unwitting attempts to
mill fingers. It will smart but not much more.

The rollers are 12 inches long and have meshing teeth
running their entire length. In cross section, they look
like fine toothed gears. However, the rollers are spaced
about .05 inch apart so the teeth do not actually mesh.
Their purpose is to pull the grain through the rollers. The
spacing assures that the grain will only be crushed enough
to expose the contents without tearing the hulls.

The assembly is mounted on a plywood base, 18 inches square.
It is intended to sit on a table, with the business end
hanging over the edge.

Operation consists of slowly pouring the grain into a hopper
and catching the milled product in a pan or bucket
underneath. It takes less than a minute to mill a pound of
grain. It could be made to work much faster but I was more
concerned about safety than speed.

The product that emerges looks like a picture out of a text
book on brewing. This is normally only obtainable through a
series of rollers whose spacing gets progressively closer.
By using the toothed rollers, we are able to achieve the
same results in one step.

[ pricing information deleted ]

--------------------- end forwarded message ---------------------

Jack says that the rollers are expensive and he will only purchase
them to order. Rather than making you go to all this trouble, Jack,
feel free to simply E-mail me the address and phone number of your
supplier, and I'll take care of it myself. I'll even post the answer
to the net so that you don't have to get flamed about wasting

Oh, and if you want to send me schematics of your grain mill (C.O.D.,
of course), my address is:

Peter Berger
5373 Beeler St.
Pittsburgh, PA 15217

Like I said, I don't have $200 to spend, and I wouldn't want to put
you to the trouble of building me one when I can do it myself. If
mailing the schematics is too much trouble, however, I can give you a
fax number which will pass them on to me. Of course, if you need to
fax it from Kinko's or something I'll pay the cost.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Berger || ARPA:
Professional Student ||
Univ. Pittsburgh School of Law || BITNET: R746PB1P@CMCCVB
Attend this school, not CMU || UUCP: ...!harvard!!pb1p
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Goldilocks is about property rights. Little Red Riding Hood is a tale
of seduction, rape, murder, and cannibalism." -Bernard J. Hibbits
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1991 02:44 EST
Subject: Transporting Homebrew

I've had no trouble checking a case of homebrew with United. I do get differing
reactions from the agent. Some say OK, others want assurance that nothing will
leak, and then proceed to put the case in double plastic bags. But it's always
gotten there with me.

Carryon is a different matter. I've been able to carry on small boxes (a dozen
bottles) with no question; on another occasion I was requested to prove that
the bottles contained beer (by drinking it then and there). On that occasion,
only 5 bottles got where they were going.

Your best bet is to call the airline. You shouldn't necessarily believe them,

Fred Walter


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1991 02:46 EST
Subject: comments on homebrewing

Last night I made a batch of beer. Nothing unusual - it was batch number 54 (I
average about 10 batches a year) - but it was my first since subscribing to
HBD. Until October I'd never realized there was so much to worry about!

Actually, I started 2 days ago. I boiled 4 gallons of water. May as well get
the chlorine out. I presume there's nothing left alive in there. My mentor when
I started brewing out in Boulder, Colonel John, suggested this. I poured the
water into gallon plastic milk jugs, put them in a cold water bath, and left
them overnight in the basement, chilled to about 40F.

I sterilize with bleach. Rather than measuring a teaspoon per 5 gallons (or
whatever is lethal to the wee beaties), I just pour a bit in and then fill the
carboy with water. It hasn't failed yet. Why take chances with sanitation?

The temperature in the basement has dropped below 60F, so it's lager season.
I'm an extract brewer - perhaps I'm lazy, but extract beer is easy and tastes
great anyway. I crushed some crystal malt (I wanted 4 oz, poured 6, and decided
to use it all because it was easier than trying to put it back in through the
small hole in the bag) with a rolling pin on a cookie sheet. Works fine, even
for the harder grains like black patent and roasted barley, and keeps those
beer-mug-lifting muscles in shape. My 4 year old daughter can crack crystal.

I dumped the cracked malt into 1.5 gal water in my 4 gal pot (the most
expensive item in my brewery), brought things to a boil, and strained out the
grains with a kitchen strainer. Got most of them. Then I added about 6 lb of
dry malt extract to the wort. This is messy. Is there a good way of pouring dry
malt extract into hot wort? Too fast and the wort splashes out of the pot; too
slow and the extract absorbs the steam and sticks to the bag. The stuff in cans
at least comes sticky, and can be forced into the pot with a rubber scraper.

I subscribe to the principle that a watched pot never boils (I have lost some
while not looking). As boil approaches, stir occasionally, and be prepared to
lift the pot off the stove (I hate electric stoves - gas provides much more
responsive temperature control). I do have boilover problems with my Dopplebock
- 2 gallons of water and 12 lb of extract in the pot leaves little head space.

I found some old hops in the freezer. They've been in there since August.
Didn't smell as aromatic as they should, so I pitched 2 oz rather than 1 for
bittering. The wort smelled fine, and not too bitter (my family, too, dislikes
the smell). I tossed in an ounce of fresh hop pellets at T-2m for aroma.

Then I carried the pot of wort to the basement, dumped a gallon of cold water
in the carboy, and proceeded to sparge the wort into the carboy. By my
calculations, 200F wort + 40F water, in roughly a 2:3 proportion, gives a
final temperature of 90-100F. My hand tells me its lukewarm too. Who needs
fancy wort chillers? So I pitched the yeast. Red Star. One package. Hasn't
failed me yet. Tonight it is bubbling nicely.

The carboy is clear glass - my basement has fluorescent lights. Should I worry?

I've given up on measuring the original gravity. Beer clearly stratifies, and
I see no point adding potential contaminants by stirring things up. If I need
the OG, I can estimate it from the materials used, I suppose. But then, my
friends have never inquired about the gravity.

In a week or so I'll dump 60 bottles in the sink, pour in too much bleach, and
let them soak overnight prior to bottling. I get a contaminated bottle maybe
once every fifth batch. I'll also throw in some labelled bottles. Soaking
overnight in bleach will remove almost anything (except Sam Adams labels). If
the labels don't float off, I grab a plastic dish scrubber and scrub. Wet paper
isn't very strong. I use only brown tall neck bottles, mostly Coors, Piels, and
Olympia. It's cheap, and refreshing on a hot summer day. You don't always want
a ((your favorite brew here)). I also use Sam Adams bottles, although they are
thinner, lighter in color, and, I suspect, not as strong.

Should I worry? Most HBD writers seem far more serious about their avocation. I
make beer it because it's fun, costs less, and tastes great. I don't care it it
could pass for brand X, or if I used the wrong style of hops. Only one of my
batches was my best ever, but all were very good. Haven't made one even close
to undrinkable yet (I'm convinced the trick is all in the sanitation).

I think I'll continue not to worry about anything I read in HBD.

Fred Walter


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 08:26 EST
Subject: RE: Artichokes and beer

For the longest time I thought medical school wasn't doing me any good, that
I wasn't learning anything. Boy, how wrong I was!
There is a certain chemical (still undiscovered by medical science) in
artichokes that make everything taste sweet. The chemical supposedly interacts
with certain neurons in certain types of taste buds that shifts your perception
of tastes toward the sweet sided. To prove this theory, eat an artichoke
before drinking a glass of plain water. It will taste sweet...
Now I've got to go to a pathology lecture. Oh, well, duty calls...
Al Taylor
Uniformed Services University
School of Medicine
Bethesda, Maryland


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 8:45:48 EST
From: John S. Link <>
Subject: Zymurgy gadget issue

A question for those of you who have purchased the Zymurgy special
issue "Homebrewers and their gadgets". Did you find it useful? By
participating in Homebrew, have I already read about all the
'gadgets' that they cover in this issue?

How about the grain issue? I'm currently an extract with 'grain tea'
brewer but want to venture into all grain soon. Is it a 'must read'?

I don't want to buy them if it will be repeat reading.




Date: 12 Dec 91 09:38:49 EST
From: Robin Garr <>
Subject: Transporting homebrew

With regard to Mike Carr's comments and request for information on carrying
homebrew on board commercial flights and shipping brew interstate, a couple
of thoughts:

* I have repeatedly been assured by BATF officials that there is NO federal
law prohibiting individuals from sending alcohol across state lines. The
feds took themselves out of that business after Repeal.

* Complicating the situation, however, is that each of the 50 states has
its own rules regarding the receipt of alcohol by its citizens from
non-commercial sources. Some ban it, some merely would seek to tax it, and
some don't care.

* In any case, you cannot legally send alcohol via the United States Postal
Service. I assume this is the result of Congressional blue-noses. The law
provides fines and prison time; I seriously doubt that this would be
enforced against individuals mailing small amounts for private consumption,
and the chances are that you could do it withoug being found out. It's
probably not a good idea, however, and the least that would happen in case
of discovery is confiscation. :-(

* Most of the private mail services, like UPS, won't knowingly accept
alcohol for shipment between individuals, but this is a matter of their own
policy and not (no matter what their agents may try to tell you) a matter
of law. In practice, most home brewers ship their goods, carefully
packaged, via UPS, not identifying them as beer and accepting the reality
that any claims for loss will be rejected. Some folks like to use smirking
euphemisms like "yeast cultures" on the address form, but I think this
risks probing questions. I like "non-perishable food gifts" myself. It's
not a lie.

* Finally, I have often carried homebrew on commercial flights without
incident. The security folks DO want to know about unmarked bottles, and
this is reasonable. But remember, it's LEGAL to brew, and it's LEGAL to
give it to friends. Don't be furtive, be forthright. "Yes, this is
home-brewed beer, and it is legal." Remember, the security authorities
(besides being minimum-wage rent-a-cops of limited education) are more
likely to be worried about a nervous passenger who's obviously lying about
something than they are about a brewer who's toting something that he has
every right to tote.

Robin Garr, associate sysop
CompuServe Wine and Beer Forum


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 10:21:19 -0500
Subject: Carry-on beer on commercial flights

I was rather concerned with the prospect of transporting homebrew and
brew in general last spring. When I asked for help form the digest,
the scariest story I heard came from Pete Soper (whatever happened to him
anyway?) who spent a long time in an airport talking to security people
and their superiors and more superiors before someone finally called the
tower. Someone in the tower told them all to quit being stupid. The line
was that if the bottles are sealed and stay sealed --- no problem.

>From that, I surmise that if some person chose to question your claim
that the liquid is beer (home brewed or not) then you would have to prove
it --- I don't know. Oh, in addition, Pete found that the bottles of
homwbrew with HOMEMADE labels did not get questioned -- even when he explicitly
told the security folks that those contained homebrew as well.

On to MY experience. Armed with this story and the knowledge that I was
doing nothing wrong, I went to the airport plenty early in case of hassles.
At the Indianapolis airport, one person asked me if those were bottles in
my carry on. I responded in the affirmative. No one bothered me after
that. I had no trouble in the Minneapolis airport.

Coming home, I had 12 bottles of microbrewed beer AND 6 little bottles of
Old Knucklehead barleywine. (Quite a load for carry on!) In the Portland
airport, a guy asked me if Ihad a case of beer in my pack. I answered thatr
I only had a half case (honest! I forgot about the little bottles for
a moment!) -- the guy nodded and left me alone. In Detroit (didn't pass
through Minneapolis on the way home) no one raised eyebrows or anything.

I think the one thing you can be sure of when you pack beer as carry-on is
that your mileage WILL vary. Someone, somewhere, once found an authoritative
reference to the legality of this, but I don't know where, who, what, etc.
about that -- it wouldn't hurt to be armed with this, a little extra time,
and a good deal of politeness when you travel. Another option is to check
it through -- I've nto done it; it sounds a bit nerve racking. But you could
get more home that way!

- --Danny
before someone called


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1991 10:13:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RE: Homebrew Digest #780 (December 12, 1991)

Please remove me form the mailing list.

David Poore


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 10:30 EST
Subject: Seattle Brewpubs

A "friend" of mine is taking a holiday trip to Seattle. While this 'friend'
is NOT taking me along, she wants to use me, and my connections to the HBD,
for info on good brewpubs, micros, etc. in the Seattle area. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,



Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 08:13:00 pst
From: Gordon Baldwin <!sherpa2!gbaldwin>
Subject: Re: Bunratty Meade

My wife and I tried Bunratty Meade when we were in Ireland 4 years
ago. The Bunratty Castle has a fun mideavel (sp?) dinner, in which
they serve their Meade. It is heaver than I am use to ( I make a
mead using 10-15Lb honey for a 5 gallon batch). I didn't know it
was made with white wine, but that would explain some of the flavor.
It has a kind of cheap wine overtone to the normal mead flavor. I
was a bit dissapointed by the flavor at first because it was not
what I was ready for, but after a couple of glasses I adjusted and
I found it quit enjoyable %-).

Right next to Bunratty is Durty Nellies. This pub has been around
since the castle was built. (or so I was told) We sat in the corner
by piano and sang show tunes with the local Irish. I don't know
many pints of Guiness I drank, but the only one I had to pay for
was the first %-).

The only problem with Ireland was it was the only place in europe
that we had a language problem. We were with friends from Cork
and when they drink they get very hard to understand.



Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1991 10:58:44 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS@UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: cold break, mash out

I'd like to second the opinion that "beginners" shouldn't feel shy
about asking "dumb" questions. Discussions of "simple" processes like
cold break often lead to more in-depth analysis of brewing. I've also run
into more than a couple of "experts" who could benefit from a discussion
of the simpler brewing concepts, but would never ask about them. So jump
right in.

Florian (with the great family attitude!) said he doesn't mash out. I've
never mashed out either, but was wondering if maybe I should. I suppose if
you are trying for an exact OG/FG then it might matter, but I'm not all
that concerned. Should I be?

BTW, there are a couple more definitions of cold break:
(n) Any vacation time in New England in the winter.
(n) When the cold you picked up from your vacation in New England in
the winter finally starts to go away.

Russ G.


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 11:12:00 EST
Subject: Traveling with Homebrew

Another data point on carrying HB on airlines . . .

Last summer I flew from Des Moines to Key West to visit family, and
I carried 16 bottles of HB in mychecked baggage. Packed securely, of
course - I wrapped it in umpteen layers of newspaper and surrounded
it on all sides by clothes. It probably would've been a good idea
to put it in a plastic bag too, but I didn't think of it.

Anyway, it arrived just fine, and the airlines gave me no trouble.
I don't know about carry-on, but HB in checked baggage seems to be
just fine.



Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 11:38:22 EST
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #778 (December 10, 1991)



Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 09:57:18 -0700
From: Jason Goldman <>
Subject: Re: Stuff it Jack

Al Taylor says:
> Building a grainmill is NOT rocket science, nor is it even close
> to brain surgery. You take two plates that grind when moved against each
> other, maybe hooking one up to a power take-off or a crank. THAT'S IT,
> Jack. Some of us are just interested in how you put YOUR two plates
> together and connected it to a drive.

Actually, I was under the impression that Jack had built a roller mill, not
a grinder. The difference is that a roller mill allows the plates to be
positioned at a known distance from each other and they won't touch each
other. I've seen a couple of roller mills and, while I think it would be
easy enough for Jack to describe the basic design, I also think that the
metal working involved could be non-trivial.



Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 07:38:14 -0800
From: (Ford Prefect)
Subject: Bad Apples

I don't know if this is the right place to ask this question, but I
imagine that I'll find out soon enough :-)

I have made an attempt at apple cider. I pressed a whole mess of apples
and created about 10 gal. of cider. Aprox 3 gal went to instant consumption
(it was really good). And the remaining 7 gallons went into a couple
of carboys. I added ale yeast (i think Whitbred), yeast nutrient, ??? acid
and couple of other things that the guy at the beer supply shop told me to.

I picked these ingredients up from the wine making shelf. Anyhow- the
fermentation went crazy for about 2.5 weeks (lots of bubbles) and it
kept filling up my blow-off bucket. While kegging another batch of
real beer I kegged this stuff too, as the gravity was almost 1.008 or
so. I had a taste at this time and it tasted like vinegar (blech!)

The guy at the shop mentioned som sort of sucrose that might help.
Sorry about the ramblin' but here is my question. Is there any thing
I can do to save this stuff? I had hopes of being able to have a
nice glass of hard cider sometime this winter. If saving this stuff
is hopeless does anybody know what to do with ~7gal of apple vinegar?

stuart galt boeing computer services bellvue washington
(206) 865-3764 or home (206) 361-0190
#include <standard/disclaim.h>
I don't know what they say, they don't know what I say...


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 12:58:54 EST
From: Brian Midura <>
Subject: Kegging Systems

I have read a little on kegging system but would appreciate if any one could
send me information on the different options....
I am looking for flexiblity in a kegging system.
I would like the ability to use softdrink and standard kegs, (those gotten from
places such as the cambridge brewery) I would appreciate and information on thethis topic....
please send mail to midura@ctron as not to excessively clutter the HBG

Brian Midura


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 13:12:12 EDT
From: Mike Dobres <DOBRES%DUVM@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject: What makes top top or bottom bottom

Just curious -What makes top fermenting yeast float more than bottom fermenting
yeast? Perhaps someting to do with cell/cytoplasmic density or C02 retained by
cell - I dunno - Any ideas?


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 11:09:48 PST
From: "John Cotterill" <>
Subject: Cold Break
Full-Name: "John Cotterill"

After I do my 5-gallon boil, I pass the hot wort thru my chiller and straight
into the fermentation vessel, where I immediately pitch the yeast (at about 68
degrees). Is this undesirable? After the chill phase, should I let the
cold break settle out and then transfer the liquid into yet another vessel?


Date: 12 Dec 91 15:19:18 EST
Subject: English Bitter Extract recipes

Fellow Brewers:

I recently brewed an all-extract batch using the following recipe
based roughly on the recipe for 'Beginner's Bitter' From Miller's book.

4.3 Lbs. Light Unhopped Malt Extract
1.0 Lbs. Light Unhopped Spray Malt
1.0 cup Dark Brown Shugar
2.0 oz. Fugles hop pellets (Boil)
1.0 oz. Fugles hop pellets (20 min steep post-boil)
3/4 cup Corn Shugar (Priming)
Whitbread Ale Yeast (Dry)

This was a 5 gal. batch. For my first try the clerk at the local
brewing supply store recommended Light Extract instead of amber. I
should probably have insisted on Amber since I like Darker Beers,
but this was my first batch and I took his advise. The beer has been
bottled for a while and upon tasting it, I have come to two
conclusions: 1) The beer is too light for what I am used to calling
bitter. (I am using my memories of Whitbread Bitter on tap in
Cambridge, England for comparison.) This I can almost certianly
attribute to the Light malt, next batch I will certianly use the
Amber. 2) The Alcohol content (according to my two hygrommeter
readings is about 6.5%) seems to be a major portion of the aroma and
flavor. I want to almost say that this beer tastes 'cidery' but risk
showing my inexperience in tasting homebrews by saying this.
Whatever I call it, I want to get more towards a true English Bitter
beer with my next batch (although I'm sure that I will have no
trouble drinking the two cases that this batch made :-)

Here are my questions for the experienced brewers out there:

1) Are my assumptions about Light vs. Amber malt correct?
2) Should I eliminate/reduce the spray malt to reduce the
alcohol taste/content? and will this effect flavor considerably?
3) Could the Brown Shugar (Cane Based) be giving me the Cidery
taste, and If so what would I substitute? Mollasses? How much?
Or, better yet...
4) Does someone have a good recipe for an all extract English bitter?
I have seen several Bitter kits at the local store. Which ones
are recommended?

Any suggestions are welcome. I think that this recipe deserves
annother batch and I want to give it a fair shake. Many thanks in advance.

Allan Wright Jr. | Pole-Vaulters Get a Natural High!
Seabrook, NH +--------------------------------------------------
Internet: AEW@B30.PRIME.COM | These are my words only, drifting through time...


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 14:23:42 EST
From: Jay Hersh <>
Subject: Sam Adams claims

Keep in mind, that when Sam Adams was winning the "Best Beer in America"
it was a poll of attendees at the GABF. They used tactics like having sexy
women distribute cool stuff (hats, coasters, etc..). Also since their beer's
name started with an A for Adams, they were next to the door, so everyone
entering the GABF would inevitably start there, meaning that while you
didn't get to taste every beer, you probably tasted Sam Adams.

Well the uproar over this became deafening, so 2 years ago (think it was 2)
the AHA finally eliminated the attendee poll and began a blind panel judging in
a per style fashion according to AHA/HWBTA guidelines. Of course there's a
pretty low category to beers present ratio, so it's still not such an
incredible feat to win, but I believe Sam Adams Lager has only won one silver
since the category judging began.

This doesn't mean I don't like the stuff, but I do cringe at some of their ads.

- JaH


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 11:48:20 PST
From: (Marcel Levy)
Subject: planes&Corsendonk

An answer to the question about the Corsendonk label: the last two lines
are a kind of Flemish I haven't seen before. The first line seem like a
dialect of French, and you're probably right about that one.

The second line "Ambachtelyk Bier" doesn't refer to the abbey. I think
"ambacht," the root word, means "avocation." At least, that's what I think
it means in Dutch. So read it as "professional beer," or "beer made by

Yes, the third line is talking about their yeast ("gist") but I don't know
what "Levende" means. Wait. On second thought, that's "live." Duh. Yeah,
that's live yeast in the bottle. Hope that helps.

Planes, beer and bureaucrats: I've carried my beer on, checked it in and
flown into Europe with it. I haven't had any problems (might be luck). I
would suggest carry-on as being less risky, but then I only had one or two
bottles in my backpack, and maybe the customs folks expect that sort of
thing from students. My one experiment with checked baggage and beer
suggests that either the cargo hold is pressurized, or that the bottles
can stand it.

But I would recommend carry-on, because baggage handlers are not known for
their deft caress.


Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 14:25:45 EST
From: "Dr. John" <>
Subject: Corona grain mills

Just because "we" only use Corona mills for crushing malt doesn't
mean that there aren't other uses, and other sources for this handy
little implement. I got mine at the food co-op in Moscow, Idaho, about
three years ago. At the time I saved about $15 or $20 compared to
the going prices from homebrew suppliers, Seems like this was, and
probably still is, a rather high-markup item for them, but that
doesn't mean that you have to pay it. Anyone who is contemplating
buying a mill should look through the yellow pages, if your town
doesn't have a food co-op perhaps it has a farm supply store, which
might also carry the Corona, or a similar brand since these things
are also useful for cracking the corn before you feed it to your
Ooogy wawa,
Dr. John


End of HOMEBREW Digest #781, 12/13/91

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