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HOMEBREW Digest #1570

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 · 14 Apr 2024

This file received at Sierra.Stanford.EDU  94/11/04 01:06:50 

HOMEBREW Digest #1570 Fri 04 November 1994

Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor

Request for Recipe (LBRISTOL)
Flavoring Beer (WILHELM)
Dead yeast as a nutrient for live yeast (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
dried apricots in beer (ANDY WALSH)
NJ homebrew supply controversy (Erik Speckman)
Re: Malting Process (Tel +44 784 443167)
Wort Cooler (Robert Mech)
re:Sparge water pH adjustments (Art Steinmetz)
Liberty Ale Success Story (Stephen Tinsley)
assorted (HEWITT)
Malting (Greg Holton)
Phenol??? (John R. Boatman)
Hopefully not a worthless post ("Rick Gontarek, Ph.D.")
Re: More Wit bier tips (Jim Busch)
Beerstone removal? ("Charles Webster")
RE: HOW LOW? (uswlsrap)
RE: HOW LOW? (uswlsrap)
Re: Belgium Here I Come! (Kimberly Carney)
Copyright and Distribution (Philip Proefrock)
Brewpot Stuff (WADE GARY L)
Mash Yield Calculations (John T Faulks)
Thanks! Local Info for Utah (Mark Worwetz)
Re: Grain Storage (Jeff Frane)
Who says communism is dead ("Ulick Stafford")
Enough is Enough! ("Todd M. McGuinness")
Re: Useless Posts (Todd Wallinger)
Keg Walls, Decoction, Grain Storage (COYOTE)

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Date: Wed, 02 Nov 94 15:38:05 CST
Subject: Request for Recipe

I'm looking for a recipe to make a red ale, or some other beer similar
to "Killian's Red", either the original version or the Coors version.
Either extract based or all-grain recipe. Please submit either here, or
e-mail to "". TIA!

- --------------------------------------------------------
| Larry Bristol | DON'T PANIC! |
| SYSUBMC.BMC.COM | A true Hitchhiker always knows |
| (713)918-7802 | where his towel is. |
- --------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 18:47:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Flavoring Beer

I am relatively new to the art of home brewing, and want to brew a flavored
batch of fruit. I know of all methods od doing this during boiling, but
had an idea I wanted to follow up on. Is it possible to get a sufficient
amount of flavor by priming a batch with az pure fruit extract or concentrate?
If so how much should I add? I was particularly thinking of adding 3-4
cups of pure cherry extract to my stout. I thoght the flavor obtained
from this method might be more perky as it is added right before bottling.
Any comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Bottoms up,



Date: 2 Nov 94 19:41:00 GMT
From: (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Dead yeast as a nutrient for live yeast

I have a question, which I would like to hash-out off-line. Could
some microbiologist homebrewer out there please contact me for a
discussion of "dead yeast as a nutrient for live yeast." I promise
to post the results of our discussions to the digest. Thanks.


Date: Thu, 3 Nov 94 17:34:09 +1000
Subject: dried apricots in beer

Pierre Jelenc asks:
>Is there a problem with the sulfite content of dried apricots? I plan on
>making something like a strong ale with apricots in the secondary, but I
>am afraid that the amounts of sulfites may be too high for even a
>domesticated yeast to tolerate. Is this in fact the case? Is there a way
>to get rid of sulfites gently (i.e. not by boiling)?

I too have wondered about dried apricots in brewing. I have not tried this
method, but have a feeling it may work. Any constructive comments are welcomed.
I assume Pierre already has dried apricots containing sodium metabisulphite

First step.
Primary ferment your beer (sans apricots) as usual. Rack to secondary as usual.
Remove a healthy portion of primary yeast cake (wash as per yeast faq if you
want) and store in fridge.

Second Step.
Steep apricots in warm water (150F??) to remove some SM from them. The trouble
is you want to retain flavour whilst removing SM. As SM is readily soluble, a
short soak (15-20 mins?) should help leach out the SM whilst keeping flavour.
You could always soak and keep tasting the apricots until they start tasting
like ... um... not like dried, soggy, apricots! I know some advocate treating
fruit with SM rather than steeping in hot water, for beer making. Small
quantities in beer are not a problem as the SO2 generated is blown off (aside:
SO2 is a very pungent gas, generated from SM in acidic environments, like
fermented beer.) SM is used in winemaking to stop fermentation. So presumably,
large quantities will kill the yeast off and stop fermentation which is not
So if you add the cooled fruit (pour off the liquid of course) to the secondary
after fermentation has slowed, either the yeast will tolerate it or not. If it
does, (shown by renewed activity in the airlock), then there are no problems.
Just wait for a couple of weeks more (to ensure all SO2 is gone), then keg or
bottle as usual. If not, then you get sneaky.

Third Step (if you have to get sneaky).
If there is no unusual airlock activity one week after adding apricots, remove
saved yeast from fridge (make up starter if you think it is necessary - I
don't), and add to beer. By this stage the SO2 *should* have blown off, making
the beer a friendly place for yeasties again. If there are any fermentables
left, fermentation should pick up once more. Proceed as usual.
All of the above is pure conjecture, I might add.

Whaddyareckon maties?

Andy Walsh. (
"For fox sake buy me a Firkin pint"
Bruce's Brewery. Fox and Firkin. Lewisham. UK.


Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 22:41:18 -0800
From: (Erik Speckman)
Subject: NJ homebrew supply controversy

It seems like that HBD has been full of controversy lately and I guess
there is just going to have to be a bit more.

I am going to say that I am not particularly fond of long posts about
geographically constrained subjects. I don't expect every post to the HBD
to be of interest to a majority of the readers. That said, I think it is
pretty obvious that info on local homebrew shops is going to be of rather
limited interest. Maybe only a few people are interested in the qualities
of peat smoked malts but there is a good chance interested parties are
spread across the country, if not the globe. On the other hand, the people
who are interested in the NJ homebrew retail scene are likely to be limited
to the NJ area. Same goes for TX, CA or the PNW. Post a short pointer to
e-mail, gopher, ftp or something.

If there really are alot of people who are interested in the local/regional
homebrew scene then maybe it makes sense to set up a regional mailing list.
If you want to do this I think it is OK to post a short notice asking for
help, then take the discussion to private e-mail until you are ready to
make the annoncement that the list is on-line. People living outside your
geographical region can sign up if they are interested, but please, leave
the rest of us blissfully ignorant of who has the best selection of bottle
caps in the tri-cities area.

As for the ubiquitous brew-pub requests, I have mixed feelings, but I think
they have more of a place. I don't travel much myself (unfortunatly), but
I can see that brew-pub info might be of broad interest because people are
interested in a good place to eat and drink when they travel. I think they
are considerably less interested in places to buy 50 lbs of grain, a pack
of liquid yeast and a few gross of bottles (yes, I am sure some of you

That said, I would like to once again encourage people on the edge to make
the plunge into all-grain or large partial mashes. After brewing a 1.060
IPA from grains and 4 lb of extract I moved up to an all grain porter. The
IPA turned out great and the porter went pretty well. I think my
formulation may have been a bit funny but the mash worked great. I hit my
target OG within 2 points. I have a smallish pot so I am doing
concentrated boils and I only collect 4.5-5 gal of runnings but it is a
hell of alot cheaper than brewing from extract and I only spent another $10
to make a lauter tun out of a 5 gal bucket, a spigot, a few feet of copper
tubing and some reflective plastic bubble-wrap for insulation.

Erik A. Speckman Seattle, Washington Good Brain Doesn't Suck
Copyright, 1994 Erik Speckman.


Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 12:56:38 +0000
From: Brian Gowland <> (Tel +44 784 443167)
Subject: Re: Malting Process

In HBD 1569, wrote:
> Will someone explain the malting process to me, please. AND..Is it
> possible or practical to do it myself? Thanks.
To be simplistic, the process of malting is allowing the grains
of barley to germinate. A grain is actually a seed and, in nature,
when this seed falls to the ground, if the conditions are right, the
seed will germinate and begin its journey to becoming a plant in its
own right. During the germination process, the grain goes through
internal changes and produces the starch (complex sugars) that we, as
brewers, use to produce our fermentable solutions. Malting grain is
simply the process of providing the right conditions (temp. and moisture)
to allow it to germinate and then halting the process by drying the
grain. As a secondary process, the grain, as well as being dried, can
also be kilned at higher temperatures in order to produce the various
speciality malts (crystal, chocolate, black etc.). It is possible to
malt your own grain but whether it is worth the effort is for each
individual to decide. The only source of information about malting at
home that I have seen is "The Historical Companion to House Brewing"
by Clive La Pensee (I think) but there are, no doubt, many others.



Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 06:43:43 CST
From: (Robert Mech)
Subject: Wort Cooler

I am curious if an "Immersion" type wort cooler would be better than one where
the brew runs through the copper. The reason that im asking this is because
im going to be making it myself. I personaly thought that making it an
immersion type would be better since im washing the OUTSIDE of the tubeing
instead of the inside. I thought it would be more sanitary since its hard to
get a bottle brush inside 1/4 inch copper tubing :-). Ok, so here is my plan,
basicly running cold water though the immersion setup, while it rests in the
beer. I figured this would give the same effect.

If anyone has pro's / con's of doing this, id like to hear them.

|+#####+ Relax, | Robert W. Mech - |
|| |-+ Don't | Freelance Programming, Support and Administration |
|| | | worry, |---------------------------------------------------------+
|| |-+ have a | Share your brew too! WWW Server | Above Text Copyright|
||_____| homebrew!| | 1994 Robert W. Mech |


Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:19:50 -0500
From: Art Steinmetz <>
Subject: re:Sparge water pH adjustments

begin 755


Date: Thu, 3 Nov 94 08:04:34 CST
From: (Stephen Tinsley)
Subject: Liberty Ale Success Story

Good news from the home front, my Liberty Ale came out great! Three weeks
ago I began an attempt at Anchor Liberty Ale (one of my all-time faves),
which was also my first foray into the partial-mash world. It was extremely
hard work, having never mashed before, and I was getting a little worried
(apologies to Charlie) that it wouldn't come out. I got the base recipe
off of the Cat's Meow, then consulted with some local homebrew club regulars
to come up with some grain additions. The recipe that I used is as follows:

(5 gallons)
8 lbs Munton and Fisons light malt extract
1/2 lb 40L Crystal Malt
1/2 lb Munich Malt
1/2 lb Cara Pils Malt
1.5 oz Fuggles Hops (bittering)
3.5 oz Cascade Hops (flavor, aroma, dry-hop etc)
Wyeast 1056 American Ale yeast culture

Mash the Crystal, Munich and Cara Pils malts in a couple of quarts of 150
degree (all degrees in Farenheit, sorry non-US) water for about 30 minutes.
Raise the temperature to 158 degrees, and hold it for 15 minutes. Raise
the temperature to 168 degrees briefly, then sparge with another quart or two
of 170 degree water. Add a gallon of water to mash, then boil it with the
malt extract for 60 minutes. At the beginning of the boil add 1.5 oz Fuggles
Hops. At 30 minutes add 1 oz Cascades. At 10 minutes add 1/2 oz Cascades.
At the end of the boil, turn off the burner and add 1/2 oz of Cascades.
Let this steep for 5-10 minutes. Cool and strain (if you aren't using
hop bags) into fermenter. Pitch yeast and top off with cold water. Rack
it in 1 week, and add 1.5 oz Cascades to the secondary fermenter. Wait
one more week and bottle with 3/4 cups corn sugar. Wait one more week
and serve very cold.

Notes: Medium color, about like Anchor Liberty, but not as "
orange". More
of a light red color, reminiscent of Bass Ale. Serious hop nose! The
cascade smell jumps right out of the glass. Good initial bitterness, Cascade
is very assertive on the pallate, and finishes with light orange notes
and a hint of spice. Pleasant aftertaste, and no off flavors. Excellent
mouth-feel, plenty of body. No alcohol hotness at all, though the feeling
in my head tells me it's all there! If I make this one again, and I think I
probably will, I might use less Cascades for dry hopping. I used nothing but
hop pellets, but I think next time I'll try using plugs, at least in the
secondary. I thought I was going to have a problem with particles in the beer
from the hop pellets in the secondary, but they eventually sank to the bottom,
and I just siphoned above them. The beer is perfectly clear. I would
suggest this recipe for anyone trying to emulate Anchor Liberty Ale.


Steve Tinsley


Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 09:22 EDT
Subject: assorted

1). So whats next ---

([{(Saddam Adams)TM, The Mother}TM of Boston]TM Beers)TM ????

2). Label soaking: On a friends advice I tried tri-sodium phosphate
(TSP) to soak bottles in an attempt to remove labels. Only the cleanser
I purchased was TSP-F phosphate-free. After a two day soak I removed
the labels, rinsed, and dried. Left behind was a layer of white film
inside and outside the bottle. Rinsing and rubbing would remove the
layer, but trace amounts left on the inside worried me. Even a cycle
in the dishwasher with Cascade wouldn't remove it. All 48 bottles
are now at the bottom of a recycling bin. Future users beware; I think
I'll stick to pure water.

3). I recently subscribed to the cider digest, and found that when
added to the mailing list, you receive an informative package of where
to go to read about the basics, a summary of the basic process, a
sample recipe, etc. All of which I think would be appropriate
for people joining the HBD. I realize not all new subscribers are
beginning brewers, but something like this may prevent future
Malt Pres. flame wars. Any comments?

Pat Hewitt (


Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 09:40:08 -0500 (EST)
From: (Greg Holton)
Subject: Malting

> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 09:19:54 -0500
> From:
> Subject: Malting Process
> Will someone explain the malting process to me, please. AND..Is it
> possible or practical to do it myself? Thanks.

There's a good article on this subject in the Zymurgy All Grain special
issue from a few years ago. Many homebrew shops stock reprints of the
special issues, or you can order them from the AHA.

Greg Holton


Date: Thu, 03 Nov 1994 9:59:58 EST
From: John R. Boatman <>
Subject: Phenol???

My latest batch has a slight plastic kind of aftertaste.

Is this phenol?
What can cause phenol?
Will it get better/worse with time?
Is it harmful?



Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 9:55:50 -0500 (EST)
From: "
Subject: Hopefully not a worthless post

Amidst the flame wars, the valiant homebrewer steps onto the information
superhighway. There, with trepidation, he makes a stop at the once-
friendly planet Homebrew Digest to ask a question...
Seriously, folks, leave your egos at the door and let's get
back to brewing better beer. With that said, I have several
questions regarding all-grain brewing. I have made about six all-grain
batches with a minimal expenditure of equipment, but I now am thinking
about a slight upgrade. I have on my Christmas wish list a Gott cooler
that I would like to use as a mash/lauter tun. I have read lots about
this setup, but I have a few questions (a few things have escaped my
understanding). First of all, I've read about either a PVC or a copper
manifold. Do these devices lay by themselves in the bottom of the cooler,
or do you still need a screen above them? Doesn't some manufacturer make
a dome-shaped plastic screen that is placed in the bottom of the cooler
but above the spigot? I have lots of brewing catalogues, but I can't seem
to find this piece of equipment. If anybody could steer me in the right
direction, I'd surely appreciate it.
I have a Zapap setup that I'm currently using. Dave Miller
says to gently recirculate the cloudy first-runnings to clear them up.
How long does this *really* take? I usually lose patience after about
10 or so minutes (several quarts), and just sparge without any further
recirculation. After cooling the boiled wort, I usually just stay
away from the goop at the bottom. I have come to ralize that I am
nowhere *near* the brewing King that Dave Miller is (ie, I can't
get an o.g. of 1.075 from 5 lbs of grain...sarcasm), but I want
to know how other mere mortal brewers do this.
TIA for the help. Now that I've asked my (worthless) questions,
you may continue the flame wars...

Rick Gontarek
Owner/brewmaster of the Major Groove Picobrewery
Baltimore, MD


Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 09:59:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <>
Subject: Re: More Wit bier tips

> Bobdabrewer asks about Wit in HBD 1567:
> > Because I am using 4 lbs. of Belgian pale malt to 5 lbs. of flaked adjunct
> > (4 wheat & 1 oats) I'm concerned, not worried, about 1.Conversion & 2.Set
> > mash. I agree w/ Lee that a decoction schedule is needed here but,once was
> > enough for me ....this is suppose to be fun.
> I am puzzled by this assertion that a decoction is appropriate in a Wit. A
> Wit is very light in body, big maltiness being inappropriate (now, a Grand
> Cru is a different thing entirely...) Maybe we're talking about a
> Competition Wit? I think a decoction would get you a better lauter, but I
> think the effect on the body would be detrimental.

I agree in the body comment, but the lauter can be successful with the
proper multistep upward mash program.

> Protein rest at ~125F for 30 min. Apply heat only to slowly bring up to
> sacc rest at ~153F for 60-90 min. Mashout at 172F for 10 min. OG 1.048.

The point I would like to reiterate on making Wits is to employ multiple
protein rests, begin around 118-122F, and rest for 15 min. Up to
126F and rest 15 min, then up to 129-132F and rest for 15 min. By
using the staged rests the lauter will work fine. A single rest may
not be adequate to handle the raw wheat. You should also use a very
thin mash, double the dough in water per pound of grains.

Good brewing

Jim Busch


Date: 2 Nov 1994 14:39:16 -0800
From: "
Charles Webster" <>
Subject: Beerstone removal?

Subject: Time:2:36 PM
OFFICE MEMO Beerstone removal? Date:11/2/94

I've recently noticed a large buildup of beerstone on the inside of my 1/2 bbl
keg kettle and on my immersion wort chiller.

1. Is the buildup harmful in any way (like harboring harmful beasties)?
2. Is there an easy way to remove the buildup (preferably without using
extremely caustic substances)?

Thanks in advance

We'll drink no beer before it's time. (And I think it's time now!)


Date: Thu, 03 Nov 94 10:36:37 EST
Subject: RE: HOW LOW?

- -------------------- Mail Item Text Follows ------------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino
Research Analyst
Subject: RE: HOW LOW?

The question was how low can you go in fermentables and still have an
okay beer From my experience with very low gravity beers, pretty low.
The key may be the _non_ fermentables you use.

Partly as an experiment and partly for a holiday party at work, I
decided to brew "
Swill Light." There _are_ people at work who appreciate
homebrew and eagerly snap up some of the extra bottles. But there are
others who are swillers.

Ingredients: One 3.3 pound bag of NW extract (cost:$5), a pound of DeWC
carapils (cost:$.95), an ounce of hop pellets (EKG, I think, for
bittering and Saaz for finish; cost:$.85), and a pack of Edme ale yeast
(cost:$.70). (costs of water, electricity, labour, et cetera not
included in estimate)

O.G. was 1.024, far less than AHA guidelines for American lager, and too
much colour, hop, and flavour for a Diet/Light. T.G. was, if I remember
correctly, 1.008) I tried to rush things a bit and bottled too soon, and
it had noticeable amounts of diacetyl (very noticeable in such a light
brew) and it didn't go over too big at the party--most people wanted the
real stuff. (My labels probably didn't help, either. I called it Swill
Light and called it

Despite the diacetyl, it was drinkable, but not something you'd drink if
something else was around. But it was young then. Time--and the yeast in
the bottle--did its work on the diacetyl. It was light bodied and low
alcohol, but it did have some body and some hop character (good balance--the ou
nce, divided between bittering and finishing, was not excessive). It was at le

Bob Paolino
Disoriented in Badgerspace


Date: Thu, 03 Nov 94 10:42:03 EST
Subject: RE: HOW LOW?

- -------------------- Mail Item Text Follows ------------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino
Research Analyst
Subject: RE: HOW LOW?

as good as your standard Canadian ale, but a lot cheaper. With the diacetyl
problem taken care of, I entered it in the Wisconsin State Fair in the
catch-all category as a low-alcohol beer and took a third place ribbon.
The judges didn't think it was anything exciting in the context of the
universe of homebrews, but thought it reasonably well-done for the kind of
beer I was brewing.

No cheap adjuncts. More flavour with half the alcohol!

Now we know what the "
Ice beer" ads mean when they say "more of what you want"
(alcohol) and "
less of what you don't" (body, flavour). Looks like I turned
that one upside down.

Bob Paolino
Disoriented in Badgerspace


Date: Thu, 03 Nov 1994 10:47:51 EST
From: Kimberly Carney <kim@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Belgium Here I Come!

=>So, I would be very interested in hearing
=>from anyone who has had interesting brewery experiences or
=>found the perfect atmosphere in some quaint rural tavern. Any
=>information will be greatly appreciated.

Pickup Michael Jackson's book on the beers of Belgium. It describes
each of the various styles of beer, and if I remember correctly
includes pointers to pubs. Because of some obscure copyright
law I could not get the book in the US, and had to order it from
the UK. You may be able to get it in Canada.

Jackson, Michael, 1942- The great beers of Belgium : a complete
guide and celebration of a unique culture / 2nd ed. Antwerp, Belgium :
M.M.C.-CODA, 1992. 271 p. : col. ill. ; 25 cm.

Since my travel lifelist includes visiting the beer capitals of
the world (Belgium, UK, Czechoslovakia), I've starting gathering
information. I have a few articles on pubs featuring lambics,
krieks, and other misc bits of information. If you're interested
let me know and I'll fax you copies.

Good Luck and Have Fun!


Date: Thu, 03 Nov 94 10:40:57 EST
Subject: Copyright and Distribution

I don't want to fan the flames on this copyright debate any more
than they already are, but I personally don't see a whole lot of
difference between the recovery of cost for someone who is taking the
time and effort to make paper copies of the HBD for people who don't
have 'Net access (but who are interested in the topic) and the
profit-making of someone who sells commercial access to the 'Net
(eg. AOL, GEnie, etc.) through which many people now get their
access to the HBD. In fact, I find the paper version less exploitative
and purer of motive, as far as "
protecting our rights" goes.

I run a (non-beer-related) 'Net newsletter, and we are thinking about
making paper copies which we would mail to people who are interested
in the topic areas, but who don't have 'Net access. I think it's just
increasing the distribution for the material, and the money that may
change hands is only to offset the costs of photocopies and postage.

When the commercial access providers start paying us authors a
royalty for the distribution of our writing, then I think it's fair
to raise the copyright question. Until then, I think we want to
encourage the free flow of ideas, rather than getting all worked up
over actually collecting on our $.02.


Date: Thu, 03 Nov 1994 15:47:28 +0000 (GMT)
From: WADE GARY L <>
Subject: Brewpot Stuff

Brewpot Stuff

Thanks to the many who responded to my enquiry about aluminum brewpots. It
looks like several brewers are using aluminum with no ill effects. I received
no negative comments on this issue.

Thanks again!



Date: Thu, 3 Nov 94 10:51:55 -0500
From: (John T Faulks)
Subject: Mash Yield Calculations

I have been trying to track mash yields to see if things like the sparge
temperature, maltmill settings, runoff rates etc can be optimised for my
process. Looking back over recent batches, it seems like all I have is noisy
data - from 24 to 31 pts per pound and no strong correlations.

Looking at the way I set up the calculation, knowing the grain and OG values
is straightforward. But I got to thinking about the wort volume. I had been
using the volume in the primary fermenter. But last batch, I checked how
much cold break slurry I threw out, nearly 3 quarts. So if I include this
discard in the yield calculation I am 5.75/5 or 15% better off. That gets me
into Miller territory (well almost), my 28 pts yield goes to 32 for this batch.

While I haven't been measuring this discard volume, it does vary quite a bit
batch to batch - big brews with lots of hops produce more cold break.

Since bigger yields make me feel better, I will be using the fermenter plus
discard volume in future calculations. There are probably lots of you who do
this already, but Obvious Improvements take the longest to discover.

Overall, I don't feel that bad though. Through HBD I have made a number of
changes with good results. Upgrading to the maltmill improved things by 2-4
pts, using hotter sparge water (190-195) and insulating keeps the grain bed
at about 170 (previously I was using about 175 and the bed cooled to less
than 150) and improved things another 2 pts. Finally, controlling the runoff
rate makes a big difference. Slowing the runoff gave me much more runoff (!)
and improved the yield 3 pts. The only problem with that last batch is the
sparge water neets to be hotter, or I need to cover my zap-pap setup to stop
the heat loss from the top.

Well there is always another batch to do.

John Faulks


Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 09:05:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Mark_Worwetz@Novell.COM (Mark Worwetz)
Subject: Thanks! Local Info for Utah

Howdy from ZION!

I wanted to thank the people who answered my questions about cider making and
Kolsch yeast. I will never worry about smelly cider or mead again. This is
why I love the HBD! :^) One key fact I received and verified about cider
making is to NOT use Champagne yeast! This stuff ferments everything, and
leaves a very dry (.996 FG), sharp finish. Use ale yeast instead. Hopefully
age will mellow it.

For the brewers along the Wasatch Front in Utah:
I have been able to score new 5+ gallon glass carboys at Allied periodically
for a mere 10 bucks.

Now for an editorial:
I have been reading and contributing to this forum for about 18 months and have
never entered the flame wars. But I have noticed that for every little post
like my local interest note above, there are about 20 replies from people
complaining about a waste of bandwidth! Is there irony there?
Also, subjects come up again and again every few months (about time for
a MM discussion again, eh?). It's just the way it is. Deal with it. Let's
not flame new subscribers when they ask about non-standard acronyms (like SMM)
or techniques. It takes less bandwidth to answer a question than to flame.
Now, I'll jump into my new asbestos, tie-dyed suit, have a homebrew, and
relax in front of the fire ;^).

Thank you, you're beautiful!
PS. Hoppy Brewing!


Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:13:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Frane <>
Subject: Re: Grain Storage

Jeff Stampes writes:
> How about storing large quantities of grain? Is temperature a
> consideration? I have only a quite cool cellar (well-ventilated to the
> mountain air to keep the temps VERY low) to store it in. I was going to
> purchase a couple of large Rubbermaid tubs to keep 50lb. bags in to keep
> the rats out of it and keep it down there . . . any problems I may
> not be considering?
You have a good handle on storage. Key element is moisture control. If
you keep the grain well sealed (I keep mine in their bags *and* in a
sealed plastic tub) in a relatively dry environment, you will not have t
o worry about (a) deterioration of the malt or (b) vermin. According to
a professional presentation at Great Western Malting I attended several
years ago, keeping the moisture down below 5% (which is where it should
be when you buy it) will mean that insect pests and rodents will not be
attracted to it. You might put some traps in, if you think there are
mousies around, and make sure there are no gaps in the lids of your tubs
for mousies to climb through (they can get through *very* small spaces).

I buy all my malt in bulk and keep it much the way you describe. SO
far <knock wood> no insects, no mousies, and no mold.

- --Jeff


Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:16:50 -0800
From: Richard B. Webb <>

Subject: Uses for the HBD

Look! A dead horse! Let's flog it some more!

The scribe for our club newsletter was taken to task for incorporating some
information found in the HBD into the club newsletter. This letter is a
not for profit source of information to brewers, many who do not have access
to the HBD. OK all of you budding author wanna-bees. How do you feel about
this subject? Does my club need to pay royalties for use of the information
presented in this public discussion?

I don't see what the problem is. A majority (pick your percentage, 50%, 75%,
99%?) of what appears in this forum is of little use to the average brewer.
It seems that it is most useful for the passive-aggressive nerd-brewer who
wants to stomp on as many toes as possible. Every once in a while, a truly
golden nugget of information comes along. I save these nuggets in a file,
adding to it when a new nugget comes along. There are several writters out
there who are doing their damndest to keep the quality level high. (I thought
that I was one of them, until I started writing this post, only to realize
that in doing so, I was perpetuating the problem...) Any attempt to
translate to hard copy and sell this forum would be met with the requirement
that all of the flotsam and jetsam be removed first. But what if we take the
remainder, good, solid information from competent brewers/writers, and made
it available to other brewers? There must be 400 clubs in the US alone, and
their 400 newsletters are in constant need of 'filler' of some kind. Do we
allow this sort of copying and dissemination? I hope so.

This forum is for sharing ideas and experiences. If you get more kicks out
of flaming this and dissing that, maybe we could start another fourm for you.
Until then, I suggest we keep the BEER digest onto the subject of BEER. And
mead, cider, wine, sake, kettles, chillers, yeasts, grain, etc.

I'm here if you want to flame me. I'll try not to take it personally. I'll
even look at them before dumping to null.void. But at least those flames
will not have to appear on the digest, and I know that I'll be doing
thousands of people all around the planet the favor of keeping them from
having to read about people disagreeing with me...

And now back to our BEER discussion,
Rich Webb


Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 11:33:36 -0500 (EST)
From: "
Ulick Stafford" <>
Subject: Who says communism is dead

After considering the objections to the publication of hbd, it seems that the
core objection comes to breaking the commandment, thou shalt not make a
profit. People seem to have a rather odd naive notion that there is the
chance to make megabucks off publishing hbd. Oh that making money were
so easy! I want someone to explain how some extortionist capitalist speculator
dog is going to makes millions from the wit and advice contained in hbd.
Please respond by email since I don't want everyone getting the same idea.
I will gladly share a percentage of those exorbitant profits I will make.

And Bob Bussy, if you were familiar with nettiquette you would have kept
our email discussion private. Or were you insulting the intelligence of hbd
readers by thinking that you had disguised me well enough?

Brewing answer. Grains should be boiled in decoctions to gelatanize
starch, while preserving as many of the enzymes as possible in the mostly
liquid rest mash.
`Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s@&* ... | Dr. Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng.
Pabst Blue Ribbon!' | Notre Dame IN 46556 |


Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 10:44:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "
Todd M. McGuinness" <tmmpci@Mcs.Net>
Subject: Enough is Enough!

Sorry to waste Bandwidth -- Is anyone tired of the wasted bandwidth on
our supposedly Constructive Forum. If you want to flame someone do it
on personal mail time. Period. End of story.

And now for something completely differant!



Date: Thu, 3 Nov 94 10:03:04 MST
From: (Todd Wallinger)
Subject: Re: Useless Posts

Sure, we can always skip over posts we are not interested in, but keep in
mind that the HBD is not an infinite resource: it is limited to about 1000
lines per day. Every post that gets published means another post won't.

This is not to say that every post has to appeal to every HBD reader or even
a majority of the readers. That is impossible. But I do think that every post
should appeal to some reasonable percentage of us (perhaps 5-10%).

For example, mashing information won't appeal to extract brewers, but will
still be of interest to the large number of brewers (probably > 50%) that do
an occasional mash. Likewise, fruit beer recipes won't appeal to the purists
among us, but there is still a decent-sized minority (at least 20%) that brews
them regularly. On the other hand, there is no reason to expect that posts
about particular homebrew shops will appeal to more than 1% of all HBD readers.
This, I feel, is a waste of bandwidth.

Tolerance is a virtue, but so is discretion.

Brew on,
Todd Wallinger


Date: Thu, 03 Nov 1994 10:26:29 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <>
Subject: Keg Walls, Decoction, Grain Storage

>Keg in fridge, serve thru the wall. Holes for tank, holes for taps.

* Ya sure. Been there, done that. kinda
I started with just holes and tubes, then when I
moved up from a picnic tap to a chrome pull handle- bar style...
I added a shank for the beer side.
Still not thru a wall yet...but maybe a floor!

I have the CO2 on ones side with two holes cuz I split the line and
added separate shutoffs. Then two lines on the other side for beer.
I also put one of those wall-style openers there two. Plus the
obligatory rauchy beer ad poster for abusive entertainment.
(well, needless to say, that was in the bachelor days. The Mrs. doesnt
exaclty care for the T&A brew ads. Animals are ok, and mnts... :)

I chose not to got through the door cuz I didn't want the taps and tubes
swinging all over the place. I now have the taps sitting above the
laundry/brew! sink I installed in the garage/brewery. Makes for a handy
drip tray, plus simpler line flushing.

But it sounds like you're going all out. Great I say!
You could consider a shank or two for you tap lines in the wall.
Oliver D. Ennis has all kinds of BAR type bits and pieces. They've
even got a kit for what you're talking about. I think Fox has most of
them too. You can go as fancy (expensive!) or cheap as you want.

I even found an old "
schhlitz" tall pull tap. Sanded the crap off, and am
awaiting an artistic flare to emblazen it with more correct glorification.
Check salvation, used surplus antique goodies. Never know what you might find.

Here's the address:
Oliver D. Ennis Inc
4151-53 Sepulveda Blvd.
Culver City, CA. 90230
(213) 391-2228 397-8190
(800) 1800 84ENNIS 843-6647

Lots of bar supplies for tapping beer. They've got some top notch equipment
and all the individual repair parts and connectors. You might want to ask
for a price list with the catalog. No relation. blah de blah.

>From: (Gunther H. Trageser)
Subject: Decoction Mash

.... He describes various decoction regimens and what puzzles me
is that he seems to include grain with the decoctions....
one is told to take 'a stiff decoction, bring it
up to conversion temperature, give it a conversion rest and then boil for
up to 45 minutes' ...
This implies that grain is included in the decoction.
Any experts out there who can help me out?

* Sounds like the trick. You do want to boil the grain portion.
You run it thru a mini conversion, then boil to break up starch
conglomerates and make more starch available. The enzymes are soluble
and remain in the liquid. If you just remove liquid for a decoction
you kill some of the enzymes, and don't make MORE starch available.
Just don't burn it.

Part of what makes a decoction work is the early COOL acid rest.
Don't mashin hot, or it won't be acidic enough. By lowering the pH
you protect the grain from losing to much tannin into the brew.
During a sparge, you don't want to get things too hot cuz you lose
some of the buffering of the mash, and can be more likely to draw
out tannin, but a brief boil under the right conditions does no
harm. Noonan's book (lagering) is pretty good on this.

> From: (Jeff Stampes)
Subject: Grain storage

> How about storing large quantities of grain? Is temperature a
consideration? I have only a quite cool cellar (well-ventilated to the
mountain air to keep the temps VERY low) to store it in. I was going to
purchase a couple of large Rubbermaid tubs to keep 50lb. bags in to keep
the rats out of it and keep it down there . . . any problems I may
not be considering?

* Cool and dry. I prefer metal containers. Some rats have tough teeth!
Watch out for weevils too. If you put your grain in a bag in a can you
can keep more air/moisture away from the valued seed!

I've commonly stored into the hundreds of pounds of grain at a time. And
no problem. I've got one can which is suffering weevils, but now that
winters here- I can put it out for a freeze and kill the bastards!
It's another one of those things I get at thrift sales. Old rectangular
wheat cans, or big lard cans, I also use Iams dog food cans from givaways.

The cool thing really isn't as critical as the dry thing.
Freezing probably isn't the best thing for enzymes.

I'll post again. Like- real soon... L8r John- The Coyote

End of HOMEBREW Digest #1570, 11/04/94

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