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Cider Digest #1071
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #1071, 1 September 2003
Cider Digest #1071 1 September 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1070, 28 August 2003 (Steury & Noel)
Source for Press Cloth? (mohrstrom@core.com)
fermenting the pulp (jack o feil)
RE: Sweeter ciders ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
British Brett! (Andrew Lea)
Re: Perry Rootstocks? ("Gary Awdey")
garbage disposals ("Peter Robinson")
Keeving: where to put the hat ("Raj B. Apte")
Re: Cider Digest #1070, 28 August 2003 ("Nathan Hirneisen")
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1070, 28 August 2003
From: Steury & Noel <steurynoel@potlatch.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:59:27 -0700
regarding deer fence:
Don't bother electrifying. It won't make any difference unless you build
high-tensile fence to about 10 feet. If you've got that kind of money, you
could hire a fulltime armed guard. We put up woven hogwire to four feet.
Deer prefer to go UNDER if possible. Above that we spliced steel rods to
the fence posts, then strung electric fence wire every six inches to seven
feet. We put fence stiffeners between posts at 12 food intervals. This
will not stop all the deer, but it certainly discourages them. Every once
in a while one will crash through, which they would if it were electrified.
But our orchards are right in a main deer thoroughfare, and we've had
minimal deer damage. The ones that do crash through panic and crash
through the other side. This isn't as expensive as it sounds. Not quite,
at least.
Diane Noel, Tim Steury, and David Steury
1021 McBride Road
Potlatch, ID 83855 USA
208.875.0804
------------------------------
Subject: Source for Press Cloth?
From: mohrstrom@core.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:11:14 -0400
Howdy, Folks -
I recently acquired an old mill and press (in need of some serious
restoration ...) I am looking for a couple of items to help the project
along:
1) The tubs are larger than those for the HVR-type presses. Can anyone
point me toward a source of larger pressing bags, or a suitable cloth
material?
B) I only have one tub. I'd like to find a source for long flat-head rivets
to build a second. McMaster-Carr's aren't long enough.
One last question: the grinder cylinder is laminated wood. Does anyone
use an epoxy coating in their mill? I have some WEST System epoxy
lying about ...
Thanks!
Mark in Kalamazoo
------------------------------
Subject: fermenting the pulp
From: jack o feil <feilorchards@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:20:21 -0700
Many years ago a fellow from Canada stopped by our fruit stand.
He was disappointed that we sold only fresh cider, that brought the
discussion around to making hard cider, he related that a cider maker
where he was from (?) fermented the fresh milled pulp and then pressed
it. This idea has been bugging me ever since, is this a reasonable thig
to do and if so what would be the advantages ,or disadvantages, if any
over fermenting the fresh pressed juice?
Also,there has been discussions about regional cider in the U S,
but one area I don't recall reading about is the area of the Southern
Appalachians and Great Smokies. I ran across one article on the internet
where their apple of choice was the Grimes Golden because it could
ferment to 9% alcohol. I suppose sugar was to precious to use to fortify
their cider as it's my impression that as these people didn't have much
extra money and used products and materials that were available locally.
We know they knew a lot about fermenting but is there anyone out there
who is willing to tell us about it?
Jack Feil
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Sweeter ciders
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:25:48 -0700
We took three weeks off and returned to a very active digest. I have a few
ideas on sweet cider to float and can emphasize with Charles having to
decant bottled cider! Been there.
> Now, I had attempted to sterile filter the first try (a cider).
> Unsuccessfully. Perhaps I wasn't filtering tight enough, perhaps my
> equipment/site isn't up to the task. The folks at Presque Isle
> note that it can be nearly impossible for small operations to achieve
sterility.
We have been trying to sterile filter using a pad filters as tight as .2
micron. The filter rep said this would get rid of the live yeast residuals
we were experiencing. As many of you know .2 is the nominal not absolute
size for a pad filter. We have looked at cartridge filters which are
manufactured to absolute specifications, but after examining the issues;
find the design and maintenance of a sterile system for a small operation
daunting and expensive. Cartridges alone run about $150 each and while they
can be reused, the cleaning and sanitation issues are rigorous in addition
any downstream operations must meet the same level of sanitation and absence
of any contamination source. The typical gravity filler we use has the
potential to expose the filtered juice to potential contamination in the
form of indigenous yeasts in the cidery. We move lightly sulfited
juice(residual sugar about 1/2%) with CO2 with the thought it would provide
some protection but have not experienced a 100% success rate to date. Have
some cider bottled in April which is a bit cloudy to say the least. Perhaps
heat or UV is the only way to stabilize any cider which has some residual
sugar.
Some ideas to float to Digest readers.
There is a page on the clarification of white wine musts on the Vinquiry.com
web site which uses a Pectinase to degrade the pectin, gelatin and silicon
products to clarify the must juice. After racking would this achieve the
same result as keeving and produce a very slow fermentation which could be
controlled, even terminated by filtration and SO2?
In the same vain, I have seen a sauterne yeast which is said to be very
sensitive to low additions of SO2. This could be helpful in stopping
fermentation at desired SG. But probably would not last in a bottled cider
for any period of time. Any microbiologists out there? could there be any
suitable yeasts which are intolerant to low levels of alcohol say, 4-6%?
------------------------------
Subject: British Brett!
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 10:27:48 +0100
Raj wrote:
> Finally, Brettanomyces was first isolated in BRITISH ale. I don't have
> the reference in front of me, but it was a Belgian desire to emulate the
> characteristic English beer of the 1800s that led to its discovery. Quality
> British ale before WWI was generally >8abv, aged for years, and well infected
> with Brett and Lacto. The Belgians named it Brettanomyces ("British fungus")
> out of respect for England's preeminance in brewing (at the time).
Well I don't know whether we Brits on the Digest should be delighted or
ashamed! That's the first time I heard that fascinating story - thanks
for the input! I think it would be a fairly restricted range of pre WW1
products that were high alcohol and long aged, though. I doubt it would
be typical of the majority of British beer at that time.
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Perry Rootstocks?
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:50:14 -0400
In Cider Digest #1070 Mark Ellis wrote:
>Is it a given that nearly all "traditional" perry pears i.e. Rock, Huffcap
>etc are Pyrus nivalis. Do they graft well onto any pyrus stock?
There seems to be a wealth of contradictory belief on this subject, probably
because much of the speculation began long before modern methods of genetic
analysis were developed. Sorting it out as best as I can from a variety of
sources (and please, anyone feel free to offfer additions, corrections or
contradictory evidence as it pertains to anything in this posting) it seems
that European dessert pears have been bred at least in part from P. nivalis.
A characteristic of relatively "pure" P. nivalis is a prominent woolly
appearance to the leaf, a characteristic I've seen to a lesser extent on
some (but not all) young perry pear leaves (at least the fifteen or so that
are available in the US). P. nivalis is also known as the Snow Pear, not
because of the downy leaves but because the fruit is inedible until after
freezing weather (a quality it shares with some very tannic native North
American crabapples). The experts seem to have a difficult time deciding
what constitutes a prototypical specimen of P. nivalis because it has mixed
freely with other pears in the wild. Some believe P. nivalis itself is an
improved form of the closely related P. elaeagrifolia.
Perry pears seem to have been improved early on by the same method used to
improve dessert pears, i.e. selection of superior random seedlings. In the
case of dessert pears, some of the important qualities for perry pears have
been bred out (for example the higher levels of leucoanthocyanin and a
reasonable structure of ripe fruit for milling and pressing). You can make
perry out of dessert pears, and some folks will like it just as some folks
like cider made from some of the more questionable dessert apples. Others
will probably find the taste wimpy. Perhaps a perry made from dessert pears
can be given a little zing by adding relatively tannic P.nivalis (similar to
blending
crabapples with dessert apples to improve balance of sugar, acid and tannins).
I grafted some P. nivalis stock last winter from scions supplied by the
National Clonal Germplasm Repository in Corvallis (I also briefly considered P.
elaeagrifolia but the fruit size was too small to be practical). In ten or
fifteen years when the trees reach bearing age it should be possible to do
some experimentation. If anyone else has already tried this I'd be
interested in hearing about the results.
My first-hand experience is limited (lots of grafting but not enough time
has elapsed to evaluate long-term results). So far I haven't found any
serious compatibility issues (health and vigor of the rootstock seem to have
been more significant factors). The rate of success in grafts has varied a
bit but has been decent overall (I did end up losing more Thorn and Yellow
Huffcap than the others and regrafted those later to make up for losses).
Even the relatively unimproved forms of P. nivalis are doing well on
OHxF97 rootstock. I grafted most of my perry pears to P. betulaefolia and
to OHxF97. The big surprise is that some Thorn and Yellow Huffcap grafted
(on impulse) to P. communis (Bartlett) seedling are growing like gangbusters.
However I live in a particularly blight-prone area and may have less success
with these in the long run.
If you want small trees, I've heard of using Provence Quince as an interstem
with a larger understock from the OHxF series. I've heard that Westons has
used this in their orchards and has had a big problem with losing trees to
fireblight. On the other hand, Alan Foster (White Oak Cider) used this
combination in Oregon and hasn't reported any serious problems with his
12-year-old trees (not really sure how much of that is due to different climate
or orchard layout, and how much is due to Alan's diligence in maintaining
good orchard hygiene). If you do decide to dwarf your trees then interstems
may prove more drought tolerant in your drier Southern Australian climate.
Gary
------------------------------
Subject: garbage disposals
From: "Peter Robinson" <PeterR@midsussex.gov.uk>
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 09:43:28 +0100
Stefan wrote:
"Are there other inexpensive apple mills or
plans to make mills/parts out there? "
We're a small producer (150 gallons a year - personal use!) and use a modified
garden shredder as a mill. It cost us £80 (you can convert to dollars) three
seasons ago. We cut all the baffles out with an angle grinder so we can put
whole apples in (even huge bramleys) and it mills a 50lb box of apples in
about 10-15 minutes. The insides are all enamel painted but the disc is just
normal steel so may cause concern to some of you regarding off flavours but
we've never noticed any...
If you need more info - you know where we are
cheers - Pete
------------------------------
Subject: Keeving: where to put the hat
From: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:08:49 -0700 (PDT)
Hi All,
The Gravensteins are pretty much done here in The Bear
Flag Republic, and despite the warmth I've done my
pressing (Gravs, in my experience, don't store well
without refrigeration).
As last year, I'm keeving the apples from the
unfertilized part of the orchard. In one carboy the
chapeau has formed nicely after only three days @60F.
After racking, what should I do with the remainder (as
much as 20% of the total)? I'd like to drop it into my
dry cider carboy (from the fertilized part of the
field) and imagine that the extra yeast and nitrogen
will be a good thing. Anyone have any experience with
this? The chapeau doesn't taste too bad--no particular
mineral (Calcium) aftertaste.
thanks,
raj
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1070, 28 August 2003
From: "Nathan Hirneisen" <cave_nate@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:53:46 -0400
a garbage disposal (ISE) is intended for intermittent use. not hours on end
of grinding apples. for reference, a continuous duty 3/4 HP motor weighs
around 50# and has provisions for air cooling.
a water cooling system would cost more that it would help. maybe some sort
of air cooling scheme would help a little. if you got the time to rig some
thing up, try.
Nate
- ----
Subject: Garbage Disposals
From: "Stefan Berggren" <yeastfarmer@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:57:29 -0500
Fellow Cidernarians...
I have just set up my press and apple mill (3/4 horse ISE) and
have a question about keeping the motor cool. I have used
it twice (in 95 degree weather) with early apples (williams Pride,
Whitney crab- which are smaller and harder than the pride) & have
experienced the motor shutting off after 20 minutes. I have
been quartering the apples and adding them slowly but still
the motor trips when it gets too hot. I have now set up a
cider juice drip that flows into the throat, when grinding
to make milliing easier on the motor. Does anyone else have
any advice as to keeping the motor cool when milling? Perhaps
a glycol jacket around the engine casing? Milling slower? I have
also thought about alternating with another disposal unit. When
one trips, I would simply hop over to the other grinder until the
one has cooled down. Are there other inexpensive apple mills or
plans to make mills/parts out there? Otherwise I have been
happy with the system (yields of 3.5-3.75 gallons per bushel).
Any advice is greatly appreciated....
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1071
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