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Cider Digest #1093
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Subject: Cider Digest #1093, 25 November 2003
Cider Digest #1093 25 November 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
14 Months in Carboy (Michael Ferdinando)
RE: Nervous Questions of a Cider Virgin ("John Howard")
Malo-lactic cultures (Andrew Lea)
Sulphur taints and their removal (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: 14 Months in Carboy
From: Michael Ferdinando <msf2@cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:28:04 -0500
Oh, cider gurus...
To my horror, last night I discovered a 5-gallon batch of cider I'd started
in September of last year (2002), still sitting in its carboy.
The water-lock (made of glass) still had a drop of water in it which seemed
to still seal it, so I don't *think* that it's oxidized. I haven't had the
guts to open it up and taste it yet.
My brewing/cidermaking notes from last year are, shall we say, sketchy at best.
I'm not sure whether I ever racked it. There seems to be a great deal of
sediment at the bottom, which makes me think that I hadn't.
The cider itself is crystal-clear. There seems to be a very thin film at
the surface, although that may just be some bubbles.
I added more water to the water-lock, as I am not going to have time to
bottle until after Thanksgiving.
Two questions:
1) Is the consensus that this batch is salvable?
2) If it is salvable... I prefer my cider to have a light sparkle-- I
usually ferment to dryness, add a half-cup of dextrose, and then bottle.
Should I add some fresh yeast to this to achieve the sparkle, or will there
be enough yeast still in solution?
Thanks for your advice!
- --Mike Ferdinando, Ithaca NY.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Nervous Questions of a Cider Virgin
From: "John Howard" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:36:55 -0500
This would definitely be a case of the blind leading the blind (virgin
leading virgin?) but may be helpful nonetheless...
I have two 5gal carboys of identical juice completing their third week of
fermentation. As an experiment, I intend to let one carboy ferment straight
through to dryness, the other I intend to rack every time the sg drops 10
points. The theory being to gradually slow, and finally stop, the
fermentation to achieve a residual sweetness, then kill off the yeast in
both batches (through sulfating and cold racking) blend them to taste and
bottle them still.
So far, I have racked the second carboy twice and have not slowed the
fermentation at all! i.e. they continue to have an identical sg. The
ferment has not yet cleared, so I suspect the yeast is still very much in
suspension and all I have done by racking is increase the risk of
contamination. Comments from wiser heads appreciated...
I am also conducting an experiment with different yeasts. Five 5gal carboys
with identical juice, five different yeasts: B71, D47, 1118, Wyeast Cider,
and wild. I'm testing, recording, and graphing sg each week. Will publish
here eventually.
John (not the PM) Howard
Philadelphia PA USA
------------------------------
Subject: Malo-lactic cultures
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 18:46:31 +0000
This has come up several time in the last few issues and I was asked to
comment, so just to confirm:
1. A malo-lactic fermentation (MLF) will drop the titratable acid by
about one half since it converts the malic acid (dibasic) to lactic acid
(monobasic). The effect in cider is much more marked than in grape
wine, where most of the acid is tartaric which is unaffected by MLF.
During MLF there will be other (usually desirable) flavour changes too
which have the general effect of softening the flavour profile, but some
wild MLF bacteria do produce adverse effects. Also, too much sulphite
(especially if added after yeast fermentation) will inhibit MLF and may
prevent it entirely
2. Yes you can add a ML winemaker's culture to cider if it does not
happen for you spontaneously. The cultures are all Leuconostoc oenos
which is also one of the MLF organisms in cider (and probably the most
benign). My ciders usually go ML spontaneously, but one year to hurry
things along I used a Lallemand culture (bought through Vigo here in the
UK) called 'Biostart oenos' with which I was very pleased, though others
have had less happy experiences. The remaining bacterial load was quite
heavy though and might give problems if you want your cider sparklingly
clear and cannot tightly filter.
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Sulphur taints and their removal
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 18:47:07 +0000
Tne chemistry of sulphur taints in cider and wine is really complex as
has already been said and is not possible to summarise simply. These
compounds are enormously flavour active at the part per billion or
trillion level so a small amount goes a heck of a long way! Yeast
strain and nutrition certainly play a major part in sulphur taint
development. Some strains of the widely used Montrachet Davis 522 yeast
are notorious in the wine industry as 'rotten egg' producers.
Copper is often used in the wine industry to remove hydrogen
sulphide-like taints and needs to be done on a wine or cider fairly soon
after fermentation is complete or the dodge may not work, for various
detailed chemical reasons. Using a copper scouring pad or copper
turnings is a little uncontrollable and may potentially lead to more
problems than it solves. (Though note that most distilled beverages are
made in copper stills for the same reason - it has good heat transfer
characteristics, it is malleable AND it binds up undesirable sulphur
compounds)
The best procedure is by addition of cupric sulphate (maximum
4 grams of blue cupric sulphate hydrate crystals per 1000 litres of wine
- - this gives 1 mg/l of copper to adsorb the H2S). More than that and
you run the risk of the copper promoting oxidation and tannin browning
and haze formation. This is legal in the EU so long as no more than 1
mg/l of copper remains in the wine, and there are no human toxicology
issues, but I cannot be sure of the situation in the USA or elsewhere.
Silver has also been used for the same purpose but is no longer legal in
the EU AFAIK, though I *think* it's permitted in Australia.
Although I've never needed to do it myself, I've recommended copper
sulphate to a couple of cidermakers (UK and US) who have done it
successfully.
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK.
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1093
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