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Info-Atari16 Digest Vol. 89 Issue 591
INFO-ATARI16 Digest Wed, 1 Nov 89 Volume 89 : Issue 591
Today's Topics:
386's, TT's, a machine I want
GNU C
Looking for info on National Atari Echo
Piggiback ROMs (2 TOS versions
TOS 1.4 Incompatibility
TOS 1.6 & TOS 1.4
TT's VME-slots (2 msgs)
TT Unix implementation
Where is that environment-setting accessory?
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Date: 1 Nov 89 00:58:15 GMT
From: atha!rwa@decwrl.dec.com (Ross Alexander)
Subject: 386's, TT's, a machine I want
winston@fjcnet.GOV (Winston M. Llamas) writes:
>In article <0926891056429243@thelake.UUCP>, steve@thelake.UUCP (Steve
Yelvington) writes:
[....]
>I would hope that Atari can release their version of Unix for the TT within
>a reasonable time period of the computer's release (unlike Commodore, which
>has promised Unix on the Amiga for years now). The availability of Unix
>applications would be a boon, but I doubt whether the average Atari user out
>there is going to bother with Unix unless it is made considerably easier to
>use.
Point a: average atari user's won't buy Unix (sVr3.2, I believe it's
to be), which is fine. They need it like a fish needs a bicycle. Unix
will be the preserve of the business work-group users and more
sophisticated home hacker types.
Point b: I'm not planning on buying into all that missed'em 5 grief
;-), the machine's got a 68030 in it so the MACH port ought to be
pretty straightforward. I sincerely hope so, anyway. I'll run minix
until it gets done - at least I'll have source. Physician, heal thyself!
Ross
------------------------------
Date: 1 Nov 89 10:27:52 GMT
From: otter!gjh@hplabs.hp.com (Graham Higgins)
Subject: GNU C
GNU C isn't really worth using on a 1Mbyte m/c. I tried it and it works only
for trivially-sized files. You'd also have *major* problems fitting it on a SS
disk. Sorry.
Graham
======
------------------------------------------------------------------
Graham Higgins | Phone: (0272) 799910 x 24060
Hewlett-Packard Labs | gray@hpl.hp.co.uk
Bristol | gray%hplb.uucp@ukc.ac.uk
U.K. | gray@hplb.hpl.hp.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: My opinions above are exactly that, mine and opinions.
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 89 15:05:55 EST
From: Marcelino Bernardo <MBERNAR%ERENJ.BITNET@CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject: Looking for info on National Atari Echo
A proposal has been made to the local Atari users group in my area, JACG,
hook up their BBS with "National Atari Echo". The current sysop is not
familiar with this, (how to get connected, hardware/software required, fees
etc.), so I thought I could help him by getting some info from the rest of
you.
Please reply to me directly. And if there's enough interest I'll summarize to
the net.
Thanks,
Marcelino Bernardo
mbernar@erenj.bitnet
------------------------------
Date: 1 Nov 89 04:14:34 GMT
From: uflorida!winnie!zach!la062594@g.ms.uky.edu ( John Karp)
Subject: Piggiback ROMs (2 TOS versions
I just received the TOS 1.4 eproms from a dealer in Orlando. While it
is ATARI's official policy that the roms should be installed by an
authorized dealer, I opted to do it myself, as the inside of my 2.5meg
1040ST isn't too pretty. The installation itself was pretty easy. Since
my 1040 had a 2 rom set initially, I had to remove three solder connections
and make 3 solder connections. (The locations inside the machine are
obvious, as they are marked plainly.... ) Anyways, I booted up the machine
and it worked right away! I tried running every program that I use on a
regular basis, and every program worked fine. I even tried a few of the games
that other users mentioned, DM, Rick Dangerous, Lost Dutchman's Mine, etc.
and all worked fine. (With Lost Dutchman's mine, I had to remove STARTGEM,
and install the actual program as an auto boot). I imagine there are a number
of programs out there which do break with this TOS, but so far so good......
I have been reading many complaints lately about the price of TOS1.4, and
while I have to agree that $99 is a bit steep for me, the comparisons being
made to other machine are hardly fair. One fellow compared this upgrade to
Macintosh's system upgrades which are free to Mac owners, but shouldn't the
comparison really be to the cost of a 512K mac owner upgrading from the
64K roms to the 128K roms? ( no path even exists for them to upgrade to
the 256K roms in the Mac II). It would be nice if ATARI were releasing
programs like NEODESK for free, but this just isn't realistic. If ATARI
charged us in advance for user support like Apple or IBM (i.e. jacked up
prices) then we should expect a bit more. Maybe the current line of computers
hasn't mad it in the business world, but show me one other machine that
can easily run three separate operating systems at anywhere near the price!
Don't get me wrong, I think ATARI needs to do something more for the US
market. The wait for TOS1.4 was ridiculous, and the STACY and the TT may
as well not exist at all if they aren't released soon, but let's keep
things in perspective. If anyone owns an ATARI ST, then I assume that
person made a concious decision to purchase it. Since nothing can be done
about which computer you own short of selling it, make the best of it. If
half the people complaining on this board spent some time developing
hardware or software, there would be nothing left to complain about.
One last comment.... I recently purchased Signum2, a document processor
distributed here in the states by ASD//Megamax, and written by
Application Systems Heidelberg. This program is GREAT!! I am currently
using it to write my thesis as I haven't found any package (including
EXP, Latex, etc.) with the ease of use and versatility of this program.
Check it out...
John P. Karp, Department of Applied Mathematics,
Florida Institute of Technology
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The above comments in no way reflect the attitudes or beliefs of any
person, living or deceased, happy or sad, grumpy, sneezy, or dopey,
other than myself and anyone who may agree with me.... I think
---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 31 Oct 89 09:56:01 GMT
From: mcsun!ukc!edcastle!hwcs!neil@uunet.uu.net (Neil Forsyth)
Subject: TOS 1.4 Incompatibility
In light of the recent discussion on software incompatibilities that people
seem to find now that they have got TOS 1.4 here is my tuppence worth.
I am 99% certain that most cases of incompatibility are due to the software
house and not Atari's ROMs.
Some software developers always think that they know best and take an
anything goes attitude.
When TOS 1.2 came out loads of things broke:-
* Arkanoid & Publishing Partner couldn't read the mouse any more
because they were using an illegal method for reading it.
(A fixed version of Arkanoid was later shipped by Atari UK
in a games pack)
* Super Sprint's protection wouldn't work because they relied on
a bug in the disk handling.
* Many games software loaded at absolute addresses but still needed
TOS calls. They broke because TOS 1.2 used more RAM and the games
sat on that RAM. FS2 from Sublogic did this but I believe that
they've fixed it now.
* Some games software insisted on setting their screen RAM to
absolute address $78000. When TOS 1.2 took more RAM the loaded
executable banged its head on its own screen RAM.
(I believe this still goes on)
I heard people saying that the new ROM's were crap, even dealers who should
have known better. Have you ever had to explain the underscore bug to a
student who just lost his big text file?
Now we have TOS 1.4 and a new set of incompatibities have sprung up.
Most games these days are probably using encrypted executables which to TOS
bear no resemblance to what will actually be run. I badmouthed packing
executables earlier this year for the same reason. We now have the fast
loading bit in the header. Who knows what future uses the other bits may
have.
PC and Mac Emulators have had some compatibility rumours too.
Would someone care to explain to to me how TOS 1.4 which is in 68000 could
have any effect or even be needed by a PC emulator that tells TOS to
'shut the **** up'. Emulators want the inbuilt hardware not the software.
With the exception of the loading/startup software emulators DON'T USE TOS!
The STE has its ROM loctated at a different address. Perhaps protected
games are checking that all the vectors are in ROM before running. If they
assume that the ROM starts at FC0000 then they will break. There are official
methods for this too.
Ken Baderstcher said that some bugs were left in the TOS 1.4 for compatibility
reasons (most notably the 2K wasted disk space and Malloc handling). But he
also said that they were no longer committed to future compatibilty on these
issues and that we should play by the rules or suffer the consequences.
The speed of the TT means that lots of software will really fly! I would just
love to see all those game get all their work done in under a frame but if
they fool about we never will. The TT I hear has two kind of RAM and TOS
may have the say in where and which RAM your program is loaded. If people
insist on absolute location of programs then there will be havoc.
OK I know I'm gonna get flamed rotten for all the above.
Atari should probably have said most of it themselves. My favourite program,
Gulam, is going to have problems with TOS 1.4 too. Again I still don't
blame Atari. (Go an Allan post yours)
Most uninformed crap I ever heard award:-
"New TOS? Yeah I know all about it! It gonna be version 2.00, will be written
by Dave Staugas and Atari UK are the people working on it!"
This stupid statement was based on the fact that Dave worked on some of the
ROM and that he put some messages in it.
No offence meant to you Dave. I *love* Neochrome and hope you are working
on a version that uses the power of the TT.
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
! DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise stated, the above comments are entirely my own !
! !
! "I think all right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of !
! being told that ordinary decent people are fed up in this country with !
! being sick and tired. I'm certainly not and I'm sick and tired of being !
! told that I am!" - Monty Python !
! !
! Neil Forsyth JANET: neil@uk.ac.hw.cs !
! Dept. of Computer Science ARPA: neil@cs.hw.ac.uk !
! Heriot-Watt University UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!neil !
! Edinburgh, Scotland, UK !
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
------------------------------
Date: 31 Oct 89 21:45:29 GMT
From: eru!luth!sunic!tut!hydra!hylka!jalkio@bloom-beacon.mit.edu (Jouni Alkio)
Subject: TOS 1.6 & TOS 1.4
In article <4280003@hpgnd.HP.COM>, alex@hpgnd.HP.COM (Alexis MERMET-GRANDFILLES)
writes:
>
> My question is quite simple ,...
> Does TOS 1.6 gives the same new functions that TOS 1.4 ?
> Are they compatible ?
>
> In fact , Is TOS 1.6 an enhancement of TOS 1.4 ? or are they
> two different branches of TOS 1.2 enhancement ? ...
As far as I know TOS 1.6 is enchanced TOS 1.4 and it includes all that
TOS 1.4 does plus routines for controlling the STE's special features.
Jouni Alkio
------------------------------
Date: 1 Nov 89 02:44:01 GMT
From:
zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!aplcen!haven!uvaarpa!hudson!astsun8.astro.Vir
ginia.EDU!gl8f@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Greg Lindahl)
Subject: TT's VME-slots
In article <468ef7cd.14a1f@force.UUCP> covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert)
writes:
> My main point is that having ONLY one slot guarantees that no vendor will
> design hardware for that slot.
See, for example, the Mac SE, for which you can buy all sorts of interesting
cards. Vendors build cards for machines which lack features and which
have profit potential.
The TT comes with most of what you'd ordinarily put into slots. Serial I/O.
High-performance video. A place to plug RAM SIMMs.
The marketing trade-off is this: the average user don't need 5 cards. If
he does, he buys the more expensive machine TT. The PC wasn't that way -- it
lacked so many features that you needed a bunch of cards.
Your mileage may vary.
Now if you can produce a bunch of users who have more than one card in their
Mac II (excluding a "normal" video card), let us know.
------
Greg Lindahl
gl8f@virginia.edu I'm not the NRA.
------------------------------
Date: 1 Nov 89 17:37:52 GMT
From: cbmvax!daveh@uunet.uu.net (Dave Haynie)
Subject: TT's VME-slots
in article <468ef7cd.14a1f@force.UUCP>, covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert)
says:
> Summary: More then one slot
> My main point is that having ONLY one slot guarantees that no vendor will
> design hardware for that slot.
That's certainly not true in general. A good example is the Macintosh SE and
SE-30. These machines have only one slot (different ones, to boot), yet
Macintosh developers have come up with various goodies to put in those
slots.
What you probably won't see is much diversity. There are processor accelerator
boards and video boards for these Macs, and apparently quite a few of them,
but not much else. There's always one or two things that lots of folks want to
add to there machines; you won't get the interesting stuff until there's a place
to put them after the basic addins are in place.
> Richard Covert
--
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests"
?uunet|pyramid|rutgers?!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy
Too much of everything is just enough
------------------------------
Date: 1 Nov 89 15:54:02 GMT
From: fjcp60!winston@uunet.uu.net (Winston M. Llamas)
Subject: TT Unix implementation
According to the November 1989 issue of Unix World magaazine, Atari will
be bundling Non Standard Logics' InDepth GUI with their version of Unix
for the TT. The article, entitled "Friendly Desktops" also state that
this GUI comes with a 68030 based workstation whose base price will be
$3000. Anybody have any idea what this particular bundled TT configuration
will be composed off?
- Winston
------------------------------
Date: 31 Oct 89 21:24:34 GMT
From:
mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watmath!watcgl!electro!ignac@tut.cis.ohio
-state.edu (Ignac Kolenko)
Subject: Where is that environment-setting accessory?
In article <8910280710.AA12896@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> VBRANDT@DBNUAMA1.BITNET
writes:
> Whatever happened to the 'Set environment & find TOS version etc' accessory
>that someone@Atari (either apratt or kbad, can't remember) promised? Does
>it exist? Is it in the queue? Or do I have to write it myself??
well, if you can wait just a couple of more weeks for the Quick Utilities
1.6 shareware release, you will have this exact feature built into Quick ST 1.6
and have the ability to edit the environment (in Laser C style) using
Quick Inf 1.6. Quick ST 1.6 will automatically load an environment file
at boot up time, which becomes the default GEM environment. Quick Inf 1.6 will
allow you to edit, load or save that environment at will.
like you say, utils such as these have to be written by the users of the
atari st. atari itself doesn't seem to care.
btw, it kbad back from his extended holiday yet???? or has he been nuked??
(if so, that's one hell of a bad move atari!!!!!)
--
=====Ignac A. Kolenko (The Ig) watmath!watcgl!electro!ignac=====
co-author of QuickST, and the entire line of Quick Shareware!!!!
"I don't care if I don't win, 'cause I don't care if I fail"
from 'Youth Of Today' by SUBURBAN DISTORTION
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End of INFO-ATARI16 Digest V89 Issue #591
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